Sage Mode Origin; Frog Kata

[Cellar Door]

Kawazu Kumite | Frog Kata | 蛙組手

 

 Kawazu Kumite | Frog Kata | 蛙組手
All of the animal species have different ways in which they utilize natural energy. Some diffuse their energy into the environment around them, or use it to make physical changes to their bodies. The toads of Mount Myoboku developed a special method as well, cloaking their bodies in natural energy and using it like a shroud to enhance their ability to fight. Naturally, those who summon the toads, and learn their ways of senjutsu become disciples of their Frog Kata. 

 

The greatest strength of the Frog Kata fighting style revolves around the nature of natural energy and how it cannot be perceived by even the most powerful dojutsu. Only another sage is capable of detecting the energy that encircles a warrior utilizing Frog Kata which invisibly extends the reach of the attacker. Even if an attack appears to miss, should their foe be struck by that aura, they will still feel the force of that attack.

Sages that are enshrouded in natural energy through Frog Kata gain the benefit of extremely enhanced reflexes and speed. The momentum that they gain in battle seems to enhance the fluidity of their movements, making them difficult to strike as they are capable of sensing most attacks before they even happen.

 

 

Sage Mode Origin; Frog Kata
Effect: Characters with this skill may perform Taijutsu Techniques with the ‘Kawazu Kumite’ descriptor. Characters with this skill may accumulate ‘Keru Charges’. ‘Keru Charges’ may be gained by successfully striking a target with a technique with the ‘Kawazu Kumite’ descriptor, additionally, when a character gains access to this skill they gain 2 ‘Keru Charges’.  Anytime a character does not have the advanced system ‘Sage Mode’ active all ‘Keru Charges’ are lost. ‘Keru Charges’ have the following effects:

 

• When performing a Basic Attack or a technique with the ‘Kawazu Kumite’ descriptor, characters with this skill may spend may spend x ‘Keru Charges’. If that Basic Attack or Technique misses its target, that technique deals a second strike that deals (40+10y)x damage, with ‘x’ being equivalent to the number of ‘Keru Charges’ spent and ‘y’ being equivalent to the user’s Ninja Rank. Damage dealt in this way is unmodified. 
• As long as a character possesses ‘Keru Charges’, they may increase the outcome of any Dodge Roll that they make by +2x for physical attacks or +x for Genjutsu attacks, with ‘x’ being equivalent to the number of ‘Keru Charges’ that they currently possess. The result of a Dodge Roll may not be increased above 90 by this skill.

Statistics: Taijutsu & Accuracy [Gamabunta’s Gang], Ninjutsu & Evasion [Gamakichi’s Gang], Genjutsu & Concentration [Gamatatsu’s Gang]
Description: The fighting style known as Frog Kata is a form of martial art that is practices exclusively by the toads of Mount Myoboku and those few summoners who have mastered the art of Sage Mode. As with most unique forms of Sage Mode, the toads developed a method of using natural energy that involves coating their body in it, allowing them to invisibly strike at their foes. The advanced senses provided by Sage Mode allow those who practice this form of taijutsu to use the most economical means of attack and defending, making the style appear extremely fluid and graceful.
Requirements: Contract Manager; Toads, Sage Mode
Cost: ⁿ/ₐ

 

 

[Cellar Door]

Designer's Notes:
So the new Sage Mode has origins that make them unique, just like in the old one. The toad's one was stupid though, especially when they have a canon fighting style to pull from. I don't feel like the effects are anything outside the norm, really. The first one is risk reward because the opponent could always choose not to dodge an attack and make you waste the charges that you spent. 

The second one is pretty good, but it also has a limited shelf-life. Being that this is only available while Sage Mode is active the chances of hitting 5 charges and sitting on them isn't amazing, and even so, that only equates to +150 Evasion.

 

Link to Sage Mode

[cntrstrk14]

Second one needs to account for Genjutsu attacks less we make the same mistake we always make. Also does the second one spend the charges or is it passive? The 'may' makes it sound like its a way to spend them, but otherwise it reads as a passive.

[Cellar Door]

Can't cut +3 in half evenly, so I shot for +2 for Genjutsu. If that's not kosher I can do +1, but, I really don't think +200 Concentration or +150 Evasion is too crazy for sitting on 5 charges.

[Princess]

My primary concern with this:

It looks and functions exactly like a taijutsu style but it breaks the red line ruling Tony made earlier, and then also falls afoul of Lan's reading of the mainsite ruling on taijutsu styles.

Essentially, as Tony ruled it, a style must use taijutsu either to gain charges or to spend them, exclusively. There must be absolutely no way in which a style can both gain and expend charges without the use of taijutsu techniques.

Lan's reading was that nope, all elements must have a taijutsu element, even if you close the red line you still need taijutsu in all areas. 

This doesn't work with either, but let's go with the red line for now.
 

Quote

Sage Mode Origin; Frog Kata
Effect: Characters with this skill may perform Taijutsu Techniques with the ‘Kawazu Kumite’ descriptor. Characters with this skill may accumulate ‘Keru Charges’. ‘Keru Charges’ may be gained by successfully striking a target with a technique with the ‘Kawazu Kumite’ descriptor, additionally, when a character gains access to this skill they gain 2 ‘Keru Charges’.  Anytime a character does not have the advanced system ‘Sage Mode’ active all ‘Keru Charges’ are lost. ‘Keru Charges’ have the following effects:

 

? When performing a Basic Attack or a technique with the ‘Kawazu Kumite’ descriptor, characters with this skill may spend may spend x ‘Keru Charges’. If that Basic Attack or Technique misses its target, that technique deals a second strike that deals (40+10y)x damage, with ‘x’ being equivalent to the number of ‘Keru Charges’ spent and ‘y’ being equivalent to the user’s Ninja Rank. Damage dealt in this way is unmodified. 
? As long as a character possesses ‘Keru Charges’, they may increase the outcome of any Dodge Roll that they make by +3x for physical attacks or +2x for Genjutsu attacks, with ‘x’ being equivalent to the number of ‘Keru Charges’ that they currently possess.

So pretty much the whole thing is red, that's no good for us. The dark red is a super easy fix, just add the word Taijutsu before technique in all instances, and all of a sudden it works. There is ground to refute it pinging off basic attacks as there are a couple of ways to pull basic attacks out of taijutsu territory, but I am not of the mindset that basic attacks should be excluded from taijutsu styles, a punch is a punch, I'm not worried here and fixing that causes bloat.

The light red, here we have a problem. You can earn 2 charges just for activating Sage Mode, then sit on them, never use a taijutsu, and just get the bonus to dodge passively. Yeah the bonus isn't great with 2 charges but the idea is you can't have bonuses from Taijutsu styles without Taijutsu, it's not a measure of how good they are. So the fixes:
-Change the 2 charge gain to be automatic the first time you use a Taijutsu technique with the 'Kawazu Kumite' descriptor. You lose tempo on the ability this way due to how sage mode works, but it means you cannot gain those two charges without using Taijutsu, easy fix.
-Change the passive into something activated each time you use a Taijutsu technique with the 'Kawazu Kumite' descriptor. I don't believe you want to do this, you want a passive bonus, but you cannot combine free charges with passive abilities by the rulings made on taijutsu styles so far in any reading of the rules.


Finally, the extra damage of that second strike, it seems insanely in excess of what a charge typically can attain. You're capping out at around 40 cost for a charge, and yeah that sits pretty comfortably in a rank to damage ratio for taijutsu, but it's the unmodified bit that irks me. I don't believe we have costing for flat unmodified damage that I have seen, but I am not entirely of the mindset it's equal to standard damage. It probably sounds like a stupidly minor change and nothing worth whinging over, but I would 100% feel more comfortable if the base value was 40 not 30 for that strike. You lose 50 damage over all but it doesn't lock in a 1:1 with standard damage ratio for flat unmodified damage. There may be a past precedent here I am unaware of though so I'm open to being shown otherwise.


Also, origins could be things that look like tai styles but aren't, I am open to that argument too, but I gotta crit it based off what it looks like, so that's what I've done so far. Apologies for the 2 year wait on a comment.

[Cellar Door]

Dark Red: The very first line of this skill states clearly that it allows the user to perform "Taijutsu techniques" with the Kawazu Kumite descriptor, the implication being that all of them will be taijutsu techniques because it is a taijutsu style. I would prefer not to add it to every single instance of the word 'technique', that seems unnecessary. I understand that you're trying to be thorough, but there is agency at work in two ways when it comes to ensuring that a Taijutsu style is not being applied in ways that would break the game. The first being at the root, with the wording of the taijutsu style itself, and the second being the techniques that are made bearing it's tag.

Just as you would look and if a pure ninjutsu said "Lotus" on it, (which is a scenario that seems far more likely if you read the wording on the Lotus style skill) you would tell that member that their creation is currently impossible, because Lotus is a taijutsu style and is not applicable to ninjutsu, I would do the same. I don't want to be combative over what is essentially just adding more words, because you're not wrong, I more so pointed out that I covered it in the first sentence, and then kind of went on a bit of a lecture because it seemed like a philosophy worth sharing with a new moderator.

Light Red 1 (Gaining 2 Charges): Under normal circumstances, I am inclined to mostly agree. A taijutsu style should gain charges from taijutsu techniques. However, that means that a Setup Phase taijutsu where you sit and meditate for a moment and gain some charges would be an acceptable, but limited thing. It would probably be something you could only access once or twice per battle, but it would guarantee charges. That sort of thing is acceptable on a regular taijutsu style, which is essentially a passive benefit to the player. Frog Kata is unique in that it exists on the field for 6 total turns (if you're a Sennin, much less before that), and it only becomes accessible after you've spent a full turn activating Sage Mode.

Frog Kata is not an ability that a player has the luxury of waiting all battle to get their charges up, nor do they have the luxury of just sitting on accumulated charges for the whole fight. So, I urge you to look beyond what is acceptable for a passive style, and consider how trying to gain 5 charges over 2, 4, and 6 turns would feel if you were using this. I would also go on to set a precedent for unique cases by bringing up Crane Style (which starts a player with 2 charges), and Wild Beast Style (which grants a player a charge when they take damage).

Light Red 2 (Activated Effect): So, I hope this never gets read by anyone that I might ever battle in the future, but this effect is fucking terrible. The only reason I would even consider putting it in is because it was what this did in canon and the only thing that makes it even a little okay is that it deals unmodified damage. Like, let's think about how this plays out if you use it.

- On your turn, you spend your charges and make it clear to the enemy that if they dodge it, another strike will happen that they also have to dodge.
- On the targets turn, they now have the luxury of deciding what to do. The spent charges have absolutely no impact on the cost of the jutsu, so negation is an option. Putting up a barrier absorbs the regular attack and does not trigger the secondary attack, same with a shield. They could just choose not to dodge it, if the second attack is worse than the initial thing. In the event that they're feeling brave and still roll the dice and they dodge it... they still get a whole other chance to dodge the secondary attack.

When you consider the fact that many styles tack on similar amounts of Bleed or Poison damage without the need for them to perform one very specific action and also don't give them a second dodge roll to avoid it, do you really find it that absurd? This effect is really only at its best when you're using it as negative reinforcement to get them to burn an RPJ that you don't want to show up when you do your big haymaker, or if you want to try and get them to waste a main phase.

Light Red 3 (Passive Effect): This whole style is not passive. Even if I milk the tits off those 2 charges... Frog Kata goes away with Sage Mode. 

[Princess]

Dark Red: I'll concede this one to you. I know your intentions are right on this, but the wording is something Tony has picked others up on, the inclusion of 'taijutsu techniques' in all instances covers bases to prevent issues arising from future skills that can add the style tag to other things, or elements that can be used to tweak the sources of a technique when its in use. It should be fine though, and honestly of all the concerns this is the weakest.

Light Red: If you are seeking an exception to the mainsite taijutsu style rules, probably gonna need to call in tony on this one mate, that's not a line I'm willing to cross because it sets a terrible precedent going forward. If we say this is allowed to function in a way with no taijutsu because it had to jump through holes to get there, do we then decide that actually any style that jumps through enough hoops no longer needs to be bound to taijutsu inherently? At which point can the same logic be applied to ninjutsu elements and genjutsu archetypes? Past precedent is important and I don't like giving staff a blank cheque to break the rules we hold members to. Not that I think this is your intention inherently, but I am concerned about what it sets out as acceptable going forward. 

Honestly, from a balance standpoint, I hadn't counted on the extra dodge roll, and with that I am willing to say I think at it's heart the style is balanced. It just breaks the one key rule taijutsu styles need to follow and I don't think I'm the right person to approve it doing that. So we can call Tony back in, get his opinion, or we can work out a way to break the red line which makes me happy and get this stamped by me before anyone else needs to jump in. I would be willing to allow it to earn additional charges as a compromise.

There is actually nothing in the rules that explicitly forbids a style earning a second charge by its own, in fact the taijutsu styles section of the rules (5.10) explicitly allows for the accrual of additional charges. You only get it for 6 turns and it does take a full turn to get into. The hoops you have to jump through I think are ample justification to say, the first time you would earn a 'Keru Charge', you instead gain 3, which takes the 'I want to start at 2' you currently have and shifts it to 'I need to use taijutsu to effectively start with 2' which is what I'm requesting. That's just an idea, you're more than capable of having your own, but without intervention I need that red line closed sorry man.


As for the mainsite stuff, Crane has no red line because it needs taijutsu to gain the benefits of the charges. Wild Beast I have opinions on none of which this is the place to discuss, but I file it under mainsite's propensity to whimiscally tweak the rules. I don't use mainsite as precedent whenever possible for this reason, some of it just isn't within the realms of a user creation, Wild Beast is the perfect example of why. 




I'm going to leave all that above, in case any other staff wants to know the issues I had with it. That said, I've talked for about a solid hour with KC about this and I think I'm less annoyed with it than I was before. Yes. It has a red line. Red lines are bad. You can't gain additional charges past those two without Taijutsu though, which means you can never make the most of the passive.

Because sage mode lasts, at most, six turns across a battle, and is an advanced system that can in theory be turned off, there's an implicit loss mechanic to justify the passive skill, which ticks that box.

So, after much debate, I am giving this approval on the condition that the second approval come from an admin or moderator. If an artificer wants to stamp this, sorry guys I'm pulling mine. I have been convinced that this is something that, within the realms of a Sage Origin, and ONLY in a Sage Origin, is this particular form of red line okay. The precedent set here is EXPLICITLY one I am affording to fighting styles pegged to the Sage Origin skill of Sage Mode. If anyone tries to cite this here as precedent for their random personal style I will swoop in and deny them myself. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by Princess

[cntrstrk14]

You should really link Sage Mode somewhere and explain what this is. I was completely unaware of what a Sage Mode Origin was and had to dig around, find Sage Mode, and then read that whole thing to figure out what was going on here and why this didn't have a cost. Anyways, moving on.

I think that the second ability may be a touch too strong. It is "only 150 Evasion", but because of the wording this gets around the Chance to Hit caps because you are increasing dodge rolls. A player with 5 charges and a 85% Chance to Dodge is unable to be hit. Luckily this is an easy fix. Simply don't allow this to increase a Dodge Roll above 90. We need to be very careful with abilities like this and not allowing them to stack, etc. They look and walk like Evasion bonuses, but they get past a lot of the protections that keep them in check such as caps and the 1.5x rule.

 

Secondly, I would prefer the Concentration bonus to be x instead of 2x. Alternatively, drop it entirely as I am not sure why Frog Kata makes you able to fortify your mind from Genjutsu better.

 

Also, as for the passive light red bonus... I need to see other Origins to compare this too. You're paying -1 SP for the Origin and getting +8x total stats across two characters... that seems like a lot for 1 SP, so I am not really seeing the full picture of how this all is being paid for. Even at +4x for one character, that's usually the -2/3 SP area of a bloodline AS. Can you explain how all these costs are working?

[Cellar Door]

I added the link as requested.

As for your question of how this is being paid for SP-wise, I'm not sure I have a good answer for that question after so long. I would imagine that my reasoning had something to do with how late into the game one had to wait to gain Sage Mode, and how much training was required on top of the SP-cost may have played a factor, but it doesn't seem like it's being well-paid-for to me, as I look now.

What if I pulled back Sage Mode and made the origin branch cost -2 and -3 respectively, and then also added in the 90% dodge cap?


EDIT:

I have pulled back Sage Mode to increase the cost of that branch, and in addition to that, I added a cap to the second part of this skill and reduced the amount of bonus you get from it from 3x and 2x to 2x and 1x.