Higher Learning

[Celes]

Higher Learning
Forever expanding with knowledge is a key function of the mind. Many shinobi dedicate their minds toward learning as many ninja techniques as possible but it is not uncommon for new knowledge acquired resulting in older knowledge fading from the mind. Those considered natural learners amongst the mass have a far greater capacity to retain any and all knowledge absorbed into their memory, allowing them a obtain a wider breadth of techniques without sacrificing as much as others.

Effect: Upon taking this skill, choose one of the following effects:

• Characters with this skill and those present may gain 25% of all EXP exchanged for JP.
• Characters with this skill and those present may gain 1 JP by exchanging 75 EXP.

Requirements: Path of the Wise

Cost: -1

 

Quote

Simplified the first along the lines of Matt's suggestion though with two options.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Celes

[Yurane]

For the first one, something that grants that already exists - I had the same idea.  [As an aside, training for JP wouldn't qualify for this or the path ability in general - You aren't "not earning exp", you're trading that exp for JP like you would for money. The path option is for training for skills or jutsu, or jonin-taught things.]

 

For the second one, I don't think that's going to fly. That opens up waaay too many skills that are deliberately locked behind paths for balancing reasons, and defeats the point of having to choose one.

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Yurane

[Celes]

Oh yeah, I saw that skill. However, does training for JP fall under Academic's bonus and your skill by extension? I didn't think it did since it references 'abilities', which going off the Glossary term doesn't apply to such. Gaining EXP for training for techniques yeah but not JP. If that's not actually the case though, then that's perfect and this can be moved to dead.

 

Yeah, did say it was iffy. I thought the balance concerns were more the Path themselves and their inherent designs and not necessarily the skills locked behind them. Cut that one out though.

 

Edit: Right, I understand that you're trading EXP for JP similar to money. That's part of the reason behind the idea and why I didn't assume it applied to your skill. Still gaining half EXP while gaining JP. It's largely the same wherein you trade words that would grant EXP to instead gain techniques, skills, etc through training, with Wise's Academic Mastery Bonus making that an exception. The effect of the skill is more in that domain since it involves training while the EXP for money doesn't. That and trading EXP to gain a little more money than others is also a feature within Mercenary's Professional Mastery Bonus, so there's at least a little bit of precedence as far as trading goes.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Celes

[Yurane]

Earning JP is training for exp, then converting it at the rate of 100 exp: 1JP.  Earning 50% EXP on top of JP is equivalent to +50% exp, which is still... kind of way too much. Quick Learner is +10% and costs 2SP.

[Celes]

Edit: Actually changed this up.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Celes

[Princess]

So what the goal here is to jounin train yourself and others at chuunin? The JP reduction needs a cap to how low it can go, While JP takes a lot of effort to spend, the ability to learn every jutsu for no jutsu points is a bit much. Unless you mean it allows you to use your Jounin-Taught SP, at which point yes, it needs a minimum of at least 1.

[Celes]

No, that's the skill Yurane created. The goal of this skill is a sort of work around to effectively allow training for JP, being 100 EXP worth of words, to be affected by training related abilities. That includes those belonging to the required Path of the Wise, which otherwise aren't applicable, by fulfilling the 'training for techniques/abilities' clause.

 

And yep added the minimum of 1 JP part in. Only omitted it because actual training for JP, which say allows you to accumulate 10 JP to spend on a technique that costs 10 JP is the same as applying -10 JP reduction to said technique through training with this skill. As mentioned, its not an actual JP reduction skill wherein one could take an infinite amount of 1 JP techniques for free with -1 JP reduction which I see that restriction making the most sense for.

[Princess]

I can get behind this now. Approved

[PandaMattMatt]

2 things

This is just going to get talent shifted away from once you fill your Jounin taught jp. Thats not good and we do not want to encourage that. 

 

Second: jp reduction is limited to a total of -2 jp for characters without a bloodline AND a -3 sp skill. Sooo... I would rather you just remove that bit. You're already getting a ton of mileage out of this. But also that mileage runs out (see above)

[Celes]

I was under the impression anything Jonin Taught doesn't automatically count against your Jonin Taught JP or SP and its simply optional? If that's not the case, I can change the wording to where they can be optionally treated as such as I'm aware of the Talent Shifting issue in that regard.

 

Additionally, its not an actual JP reduction skill. It doesn't passively grant JP reduction. You can train for JP by simply training to gain 100 EXP and exchange it for 1 JP without a skill and can be done infinitely. That's precisely whats occurring in the skill. You can train for 8 JP and purchase a maxed CP cap Jonin technique at 8 JP at effectively no cost, etc. The sole thing the skill is doing is letting training based skills apply to that since they don't otherwise when training for JP.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Celes

[PandaMattMatt]

I think we can shave down the complexity on this by being ultimately direct and blunt with your intention:

 

"Characters with this skill may apply any bonus effects to their awarded EXP before deciding to exchange for JP."

Requirement: Path of the Wise

Cost: -1 sp

 

This cuts down on so many words and confusing interactions and removes unnecessary variables. It also remains useful through the whole game.

 

I think a skill that allows you to self train for Jounin Taught should be separate and not necessarily tied to Wise, but still a good addition to the game. If you want to take a stab at it, go for it. Otherwise I will probably do it soon haha

[Celes]

Yeah, I'm all for blunt and direct but only reason I went the previous route was primarily due to specific verbiage in both Path of the Wise's Mastery Bonuses. Mentor's +1 EXP would inherently affect EXP gained, and thusly reducing the amount of words required to get the 1 JP, but its word reduction bonus wouldn't apply from the way you have it worded currently, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe the same with Academic's 50% EXP bonus.

 

Alternatively, going a bit with your wording though, I've adjusted it to the following. "Characters with this skill and those present are treated as training for abilities when completing training for JP." Would that suffice?

 

And that sounds interesting if doable. That really seems like Wise's vibe and I wonder what you could add to make it not be violate the whole Talent Shift issue but you can probably handle that haha. I've at least one other Wise skill I'm thinking on.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Celes

[PandaMattMatt]

No, it wouldn't. Because you don't train for Jp. You train for Exp which can be swapped out for Jp. That path mastery is meant for situations where you would not get any exp. "Training" for Jp is just training for exp then swapping it out like currency. Sooo... I don't mind adding in "and those present" since we want to encourage Wise to share the love,  but ultimately I think this is still the best way to accomplish what want while remaining balanced.

 

Edit; Now I'm on computer instead of mobile!

Not all skills need to be 100% efficient. That being said, the way I have worded my effect is actually quite powerful. Let's say you're a chuunin Path of Wise with the Mentor ability: Let's say you're right at the base 3.5 exp per line (between levels 21 and 60). You write 4000 words of training with a jounin. That's 200 lines at 6.5 exp (modified by mentor) per line. 200*6.5 = 1300 exp. Now under normal circumstances, you would have the option to either exchange for 13 jp or move on to applying EXP skills. Let's say you have Quick Learner. So 1300 *1.1 = 1430 if you decide to take exp. The way I have proposed the skill, you would be able to apply Exp bonuses (be that a Training Manual [+50% exp], Quick Learner [+10% exp] and/or a DB [+10%-30% exp]. There are more ways to get exp, these are just the most common ones I see.) before choosing to either swap JP or take the exp or some middle ground between. This is a pretty good deal since it actively builds on the Mentor's ability increase the amount of EXP gained per line, then double down lets you modify your EXP before swapping for JP.

 

Academic? Also pretty good!

Say the above is still true, but instead of training for exp, you're training for an ability like... I dunno, Rasengan. Academic lets you take half the amount of EXP instead of 0 exp for words written. So instead of getting 1100 exp (5.5 per line) you would get 550 exp. This means right now you can swap out for 5 jp with 50 exp left over. But with this skills, you get to apply EXP bonuses before choosing to swap out. so 550 *1.1 {Quick Learner} = 605. Now you can swap for 6 jp. So basically, either Mastery option you choose the skill works as intended.

 

Now that I have fully written out the interaction I am seeing, I am pretty convinced that my wording is rock solid. Thoughts?

Edited February 25, 2021 by PandaMattMatt

[Celes]

I mean, I get what you're talking about from the not every skill needing to be 100% efficient but you did specify wanting to change the effect to my intention, which that doesn't. If the verdict is more so "can't be 100% efficient" with regards to how my original effect went, then that's a different story and is fine. It's not clear which one it is though.

 

And even without counting Mentor's word reduction effect, Academic in that instance only becomes relevant while training for abilities. Outside of that, when attempting to train for JP, it's a no go which was the whole intention behind this skill. You're correct about training for EXP versus JP. That's my bad with mixing the wording.

[PandaMattMatt]

So... what are you wanting to do? Because quite honestly, I think it's been lost in this discussion. I have a feeling your character is Path of Wise, but which path mastery did they take? What is your absolute most basic intention with this? Give me an example of how you would want/expect it to work under perfect conditions, please.

Edited February 25, 2021 by PandaMattMatt

[Celes]

I've mentioned it a number of times in the thread but the basic intention was to apply either of the Mastery bonuses of Path of the Wise towards training for JP. For Mentor, the word reduction effect in particular since the +1 EXP effect works just fine for that. That was done through my original effect. 

 

With Mentor, as a level 21-60 Chuunin by yourself, you had to write x words, which was however much you need to get to 100 EXP, to train to learn a technique. That amount is 460~ (23 * 4.5 = 103.5). That vibes with Wise and reduces the words needed to get that 100 EXP to 345. With Academic, you still have to write the 460 words but get 52 EXP instead. Each instance of x words you write is -1 JP to the technique you trained for. It's essentially just using an existing mechanic to allow an interaction that's not otherwise possible. Other training skills could apply too but at the base, the Mastery bonuses were the primary targets to work with.

[PandaMattMatt]

Academic only grants Exp to find that don't get it. As we have already established, writing words with the intention of exchanging for jp, is, in fact, training for exp. Gaining half your exp when exchange for jp is just... granting yourself a bigger bonus to exp in general. Maybe the simplest way to accommodate this is to just...

 

"This Character may exchange 1 JP for 75 Exp."

 

It's not a 50% discount as I think that is too much, but it seems to fill this niche.  And if I'm still missing the point, I'm going to need a more specific example. 

[Celes]

The original effect said along the lines of (since I can't remember it spot on now haha), "Characters with this skill may perform training to learn techniques by writing x words, with 'x' being equivalent to the amount of words needed to gain 100 EXP". I'm aware you don't gain EXP when exchanging it for JP as well as I aware that Academic only grants EXP when training for abilities, hence the skill in the first place. With the skill's original effect, you're not getting EXP and exchanging it for JP. You're performing training for a technique. It's the same way you would exchange 100 EXP of regular training for 1 JP and you're writing the same amount of words of training that would've netted you 100 EXP. But because you're training (specifically for a technique/ability), you still don't gain that experience (same as exchanging) and instead gain -1 JP to the technique you're learning (same as gaining 1 JP). That's literally all what the skill does by itself.

 

But its the training abilities that come into play outside of this particular skill that give it a purpose because you're performing training for a technique/ability now, as the Mastery bonuses require and thus their effects come into play in the examples provided previously for both Mentor and Academic, being word reduction and 50% EXP respectively. If it's still not clear, my apologies as I'm not sure how else to phrase it lol.

 

Edit: So I've placed some semblance of the original effect back into first post while maintaining the Jonin Taught aspect but its been worded to only apply to those present and not those possessing the skill since that's not doable without some other ability allowing such and that wasn't the original intent with building it into this skill.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Celes

[Cellar Door]

 

Denied. The way this is worded, you and all your friends learn any jutsu for 100 xp worth of words, and you get -1 JP to that.

I assume that you meant 100xp per 1 JP, in which case this is still denied because it reduces the JP off all techniques you and your friends train for by half. Path of the Wise already gets a really good premium on being a teacher, so if you're going to try and expand on that, it will need to be small or like... on a different axis. I could see this being a Jonin-exclusive skill where you gain +x Jonin-taught JP, and can teach x additional JP to other people, and then give it ranks or something.

[Celes]

Changed this up.