Preventive Archetype

[Tw33dle]

Preventive Archetype

Description: Some shinobi possess abnormal abilities to affect the minds of others. A select few of those shinobi also learn how to mentally control the flow of their adrenaline. By combining both skills, the user connects with their opponent's mind, potentially causing damage, while also preparing themselves for an incoming attack. To do so, the user increases the flow of adrenaline in their body and prepares their muscles for exertion.  

Effects: The user may learn and perform Preventive Archetype Genjutsu techniques. 

Once per Preventive Archetype technique the user performed that hit an opponent since the end of the user’s last turn, the user may select one incoming attack at the beginning of their Response Phase and reduce its total damage by X. If the attack hits the user, they suffer X unmodified damage at the end of their next Response Phase. X is equal to 10% of the total damage of the selected attack. 

Cost: -2

Edited February 15, 2023 by Tw33dle

[Sol Pope]

I'm into it, Approved

[almondsAndRain]

Posting in here following a discord discussion with Tweeds, so we don't forget and so other staff know. The short version is that this is significantly better than Carnal or similar archetypes, requiring that the Carnal user to invest in something like ten times as much stat reduction to get an effect as strong as a Languish user would receive passively, and so this cannot be approved without significant changes.

[Tw33dle]

Changed the name and effect. 

[Princess]

Given forbidden jutsu have no upper limit to JP, and sennin jutsu can get up to 13 but oh you can also buy them early to double their JP oh and make them pet jutsu oh and make them hybrid jutsu, I really feel like this is capable of just way too much.

What might be fine is if you go:

The user may learn and perform Astray Archetype techniques. When you hit with one or more Astray Archetype techniques, roll a d5 (if the jutsu was jounin or sennin rank, roll a d10  instead) at the start of your next response phase. You may increase your first dodge roll that phase by X, where X is the result of the die roll. This does not apply to Dodge Rolls of 5 or lower.

So you have a hard cap of what it can do, 10, which is lower yes than the base cap for sennin and significantly lower than the theoretical caps, and has a random element to it. As worded, you're messing with their perception of accuracy, so having some randomnness is still fine I like to think, it's very clear what the trigger for the roll and the timing for the roll is and when it applies. It then open up the door to create technique that specifically interact with the archetype in a way similar to how tai styles can have attacks which generate or spend charges outside of normal rules. You could have techniques that modify the roll from the archtype, or allow it to apply to an additional dodge roll. Because it's a flat modifier to the roll, it circumvents caps entirely, which is normally very strong, but being a random element akin to premonish ken, I think it's doable.

[almondsAndRain]

Tweeds wanted me to post this here instead of copy-pasting it.
 

Quote

The user may learn and perform Astray Archetype Genjutsu techniques. If an opponent was hit by one of the user's Astray techniques since the end of their last turn, the user may roll an X sided die at the start of their Response Phase and add the result to the first dodge roll they perform that turn. This does not apply to Dodge Rolls of 5 or below. X is equal to 5 if the Astray technique that hit was a Genin or Chuunin technique, or 10 if it was a Jonin or Sennin technique.

Also, please pull the WIP out of your title before we app this, lmao

[Tw33dle]

Edits made

[Princess]

One weird thing i was thinking. If your first dodge roll is a 4, the modifier can't apply. But does it move to the next dodge roll if there is one? As currently worded it does not (only stipulates it adds to first dodge roll, and <5 can't be modified, no clause to allow it to apply to first modifiable roll).

 

If that current reading works for you I can slap a big ol' stampy boi on this. If not make a little change and it should be golden.

[Tw33dle]

Made the edit to include that the roll is added to the first modifiable dodge roll. Thanks for catching that!

[Princess]

[almondsAndRain]

I’m doing a quick comparison here between my Storyteller Archetype and this one, as they’re both -2 Archetypes with similar effects.

 

For ease of reference: 

Storyteller Archetype

Effect: The user may learn and perform Storyteller Archetype Genjutsu techniques. 

Opponents hit by Storyteller Archetype techniques reduce the results of their dodge rolls that are 95 or lower by 2X for one turn, where X is equal to the number of opponents on the field. X may never be higher than 5. This may not stack with itself. 

Requirements: Komainu Summon. 

Cost: -2. 

 

So... Storyteller is stronger, and even if it’s influenced by the opponent and it’s limited to summons that you’re supposed to arc for, the difference is wide. 

If we look beyond Storyteller, it’s still worse than the -1 Archetypes in its current state, because an average of +25 Evasion at Genin and Chuunin, and an average of +55 at Jonin and Sennin, to only one roll is really cheap. That’s 20 CP at Genin, 17 at Chuunin, and 33 at Jonin and Sennin, before we account for the deduction for applying to only one roll. This does have an effect on Block Range and Crit Range that is not accurately modeled by the Evasion bonus CP, but I don’t feel that makes up the difference. 

 

My suggestion is to buff it up. Have it apply to all dodge rolls they perform that turn in response to the opponent’s attacks, or perhaps go for another effect entirely, since this ended up being pretty similar to Storyteller above and that other one I subbed not long before this. I don't mind sharing the effect / remaking my thing, especially since if I remember correctly we ended up with similar effects because I'm dumb and recommended it to you after forgetting what my own stuff did, but now could be a good time to flex those GA-hopeful muscles.

Whatever you choose to go with works for me o7

Edited February 3, 2023 by almondsAndRain

[Tw33dle]

Changed the archetype to something completely differently. Included the math up there so it was closer to the actual skill. 

[almondsAndRain]

Okay, this version came out pretty interesting! Well done. I’m posting my recommended changes below, to clear up the wording, and also close a loophole that currently exists. The loophole is fairly simple - there is nothing preventing them from rolling this, seeing that they fail, and then choosing to use a basic unarmed attack on themselves or something similarly useless.

 

Disorientation Archetype

wordsAndWords.

Effect: The user may learn and perform Disorientation Archetype Genjutsu. 

The first time an opponent hit by a Disorientation attack in their Response Phase attempts an offensive action, they must roll a 100-sided die. The name of the action they are performing must be included in the die roll’s reason for rolling field. If the opponent rolls an X or below, they target themselves with that action and may not decide to treat their modifiers as if they were a lower value if they fail this roll, and respond to the attack at the beginning of their Response Phase.

X may never be higher than 20, and is set to 0 whenever the opponent is not hit by a Disorientation attack in their Response Phase. X is increased by 1 if the Disorientation attack is of Genin rank, 2 if it is of Chuunin rank, 3 if it is of Jonin rank, and 4 if it is of Sennin rank. 

Cost: -2.

 

I am tempted to request you increase the cost a bit or perhaps add a training requirement, but I’d like to see what other staff think. 

[Tw33dle]

I'm fine with that edit. Edit made.

[almondsAndRain]

Putting more thought into this:

Change: "X may never be higher than 20, and is set to 0 whenever the opponent is not hit by a Disorientation attack in their Response Phase." to "X may never be higher than 20, and is set to 0 when the opponent is not hit by a Disorientation attack in their Response Phase or when they attack themselves through this ability."

 

Change: "X is increased by 1 if the Disorientation attack is of" to "X is increased by 1 if the target is hit by a Disorientation attack of".

 

Change: "they target themselves with that action and may not decide to treat their modifiers as if they were a lower value if they fail this roll" to "they target themselves with that action and treat their modifiers as if they were halved for that action if they fail this roll."

 

The first two were oversights, the third is me trying - and failing - to make myself more comfortable with the low cost. This helps you in two ways, basically: the first is that it's a quasi-Afraid, they are less likely to be able to attack you. That is very good defensively, roughly equivalent to Aura Perception; Premonition or Combinatorial; Ghost Lights at their peak, but with a much longer build up. Premonition is a passive effects and costs -5 (including the Advanced Path) Ghost Lights is similar to this in that you need to hit a target repeatedly over time to keep the effect going and costs -5 after requirements. 

 

The second way this helps you is that your opponent is attacking themselves. As a pure Genjutsu user, this help you a decent amount - all your benefit will be coming from them not being able to hit you for a turn, or from the statuses they inflict on themselves, or from them spending their resources attacking themselves, because it's rare for Gen users to fight other Gen usera. But as a hybrid, this is much better, as the opponent kicks themselves and moves you further along to knocking them to 0 Health. 

 

So this ability is very strong, and I'm a bit embarrassed I missed that on my first pass lol. What I'd like to see is the cost increasing, the opponent having more counterplay to this (an ability to knock it down to 0 would be great - perhaps not performing an offensive action, so they still don't hit you), the archetype being weakened some (such as through having X increase once per turn, by the highest rank Disorientation attack to hit) or possibly an increase in requirements. I'm not asking for all of these changes, and you are free to offer alternatives, but I am asking that we bring this thing's cost to power level ratio down some. 

 

There is one specific nerf that I'd like to see: Have this increase fail chance of offensive actions, but have the effects of this Archetype trigger on X or below. My reasoning is that stacking fail chance with Premonition and high Evasion is already really strong. Adding a fourth roll to that is too much. If it becomes fail chance, this becomes more manageable.

Edited February 5, 2023 by almondsAndRain

[Tw33dle]

Worked with almonds on this via Discord to try and balance it. Added Path of the Medic as a Requirement and upped the SP cost from 2 to 3 to increase it's power:cost ratio since almonds was unsure of how to cost it at the time of working on it. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Tw33dle

[almondsAndRain]

Making them hit themselves is a very large tempo swing. My suggestion remains what it was over Discord, to have them inflict themselves with a small amount of Ghost Damage when they roll below X instead of targeting themselves with the attack. 

 

You did mention that it pulled the Archetype too far from where you envisioned it, and I’m of course open to alternative effects. But this is currently very powerful with even just the occasional pseudo-stun it inflicts, let alone the attack.

Edited February 7, 2023 by almondsAndRain

[Tw33dle]

Alright, trying something different after a previous discord conversation.