Rasengan Mk. III

[Cellar Door]

Rasengan Training Skills

Rasengan Training; Rotation
Effect: Characters with this skill may purchase the skill ‘Rasengan Training; Power’ provided they meet all necessary requirements.
Description: The initial step in learning to create the Rasengan is learning to control the rotation of one’s chakra without any form of hand seal. This training is most often conducted with a supply of water balloons so that teachers can track their student’s progress in a visible way as they attempt to force their chakra to spin in multiple directions at once. It is important for students to know the natural rotation of their chakra, which is always the same direction as the swirl in one’s hair.
Requirements: 10-Post Jonin Training, x In-Character Time (Normal; 4 Weeks, Gifted; 3 Weeks, Genius; 2 Weeks, Prodigy; 1 Week, Legendary; 1 Day)
Cost: -0

Rasengan Training; Power
Effect: Characters with this skill may purchase the skill ‘Rasengan Training; Containment’ provided they meet all necessary requirements.
Description: The second step in training to master the Rasengan involves learning to increase the volume and density that one expels from their hand. The trainee is often graduated from a water balloon to a rubber ball that when broken signifies that the trainee has produced a strong enough volume of chakra. This stage of training can be extremely daunting and is known to cause temporary injury to the trainees’ hands due to the sheer amount of chakra being forced through them.
Requirements: Rasengan Training; Rotation, 15-Post Jonin Training, x In-Character Time (Normal; 8 Weeks, Gifted; 6 Weeks, Genius; 4 Weeks, Prodigy; 2 Weeks, Legendary; 1 Week)
Cost: -0

Rasengan Training; Containment
Effect: Characters with this skill may purchase void-element techniques that require the skill ‘Rasengan Training; Containment’. Void-element techniques that require the skill ‘Rasengan Training; Containment’ may be used a number of times per battle depending on the rank of the technique (i,e: Genin; 2, Chūnin; 2, Jōnin; 1, Sennin; 1). All void-element techniques that require the skill ‘Rasengan Training; Containment’ of the same rank share usage limits.
Description: The final step of Rasengan training is to combine the elements learned in the first two steps, while forcing the whirling torrent of chakra into a perfectly contained sphere. For the final portion of training, a regular balloon is often used as an aide. If the trainee pops the balloon while trying to create a Rasengan within it, then they have failed to achieve complete mastery of the Rasengan.
Requirements: Rasengan Training; Power, 20-Post Jonin Training, x In-Character Time (Normal; 12 Weeks, Gifted; 9 Weeks, Genius; 6 Weeks, Prodigy; 3 Weeks, Legendary; 1 Week)
Cost: -2

 

 

 

Rasengan | Spiralling Sphere | 螺旋丸

 

• Rasengan | Spiralling Sphere | 螺旋丸
Type: Ninjutsu [Void | Seal-less]
Rank: Chūnin
Cost: 150 Chakra
Damage: 175
Effect: Any time an item reduces or negates the damage dealt by this technique, that item is afflicted with the status effect 'Destroy Item' or 'Destroy Weapon'. The user of this technique (or any combatant capable of performing 'Rasengan') may choose to increase the base cost of this technique by paying 'x' Chakra to increase the total damage of this technique by 1.25x. The value of x may never exceed a number based on the user's Ninja Rank (i.e; Genin; 40, Chūnin; 80, Jōnin; 120, Sennin; 160). Anytime this technique deals damage to a Barrier, Shield or other Construct, this technique deals an additional 20% of its total damage to that Barrier, Shield, or Construct.
Description: Inspired by one of the most destructive forces that shinobi-kind has ever known, the Rasengan is an ultra-high level technique and considered by most to be the pinnacle of shape transformation. The Rasengan was created by the legendary Fourth Hokage, Namikaze Minato after three years of refinement. Unlike most jutsu, Rasengan does not require handseals to perform and is considered an extremely versatile attack. By forcing their chakra to a point in their hand, the user creates a powerful storm of pure chakra contained in a small sphere similar in appearance to the Tailed Beast Ball that it was modeled after. On contact, the Rasengan grinds into its target and propels the foe along its trajectory until it bursts, causing severe damage at its point of contact.
Requirements: Rasengan Training; Containment (If this technique is acquired in anyway without the skill 'Rasengan Training; Containment' it may be used 1 time per battle, and shares uses with all other techniques that require Rasengan Training skills.)
Points: 6

• Ōdama Rasengan | Big Ball Spiralling Sphere | 大玉螺旋丸
Type: Ninjutsu [Void | Seal-less]
Rank: Jōnin
Cost: 250 Chakra
Damage: 375
Effect: Any time an item reduces or negates the damage dealt by this technique, that item is afflicted with the status effect 'Destroy Item' or 'Destroy Weapon'. The user of this technique (or any combatant capable of performing 'Rasengan') may choose to increase the base cost of this technique by paying 'x' Chakra to increase the total damage of this technique by 1.5x. The value of x may never exceed a number based on the user's Ninja Rank (i.e; Chūnin; 120, Jōnin; 150, Sennin; 190). Anytime this technique deals damage to a Barrier, Shield or other Construct, this technique deals an additional 40% of its total damage to that Barrier, Shield, or Construct.
Description: The most natural and obvious progression of the Rasengan's power is to increase the size and power of the attack. The Ōdama Rasengan is built upon the exact same principles as the Rasengan by compressing spinning chakra into an orb in the palm of one's hand, but uses more chakra that is compressed to a higher density. The sphere releases its energy immediately on contact with its target, increasing its destructive power far beyond that of the basic Rasengan. The explosion that results from the discharge of energy is large enough to leave a sizeable crater in the ground.
Requirements: Rasengan Training; Containment (If this technique is acquired in anyway without the skill 'Rasengan Training; Containment' it may be used 1 time per battle, and shares uses with all other techniques that require Rasengan Training skills.)
Points: 6 

• Chōōdama Rasengan | Ultra-Big Ball Spiralling Sphere | 超大玉螺旋丸
Type: Ninjutsu [Void | Seal-less]
Rank: Sennin
Cost: 500 Chakra
Damage: 500
Effect: Any time an item reduces or negates the damage dealt by this technique, that item is afflicted with the status effect 'Destroy Item' or 'Destroy Weapon'. The user of this technique (or any combatant capable of performing 'Rasengan') may choose to increase the base cost of this technique by paying 'x' Chakra to increase the total damage of this technique by 2x. The value of x may never exceed a number based on the user's Ninja Rank (i.e; Jōnin; 150, Sennin; 200). Anytime this technique deals damage to a Barrier, Shield or other Construct, this technique deals an additional 60% of its total damage to that Barrier, Shield, or Construct.
Description: A massive and powerful variant of the Rasengan that is created by condensing an extremely large amount of chakra into a perfect sphere. The destructive force of the Chōōdama Rasengan far exceeds its smaller variants, often with enough power to level entire buildings. Because of the vast amount of chakra, the Ultra-Big Ball Spiralling Sphere's mass is great enough that few ninja are capable of holding orb unassisted and usually require the help of clones or other ninja to attack with it. Upon the detonation of the Chōōdama Rasengan, a heavy shock-wave is released that can be felt for miles around.
Requirements: Rasengan Training; Containment (If this technique is acquired in anyway without the skill 'Rasengan Training; Containment' it may be used 1 time per battle, and shares uses with all other techniques that require Rasengan Training skills.)
Points: 6

 

 

 

[Cellar Door]

Designer's Notes:
Making an update for the Rasengan since Chidori is working on its own. The previous version is here, and I stream-lined and slimmed down the effect quite a bit on this. Mostly because I feel like Rasengan isn’t a super tool-kit jutsu. It’s just a huge damage ball.

I removed the defense reduction in favor of a more convenient way to boost your overall damage than the previous clone mechanic that allowed for additional damage based on the Ninjutsu stat of the clone. (Which I felt had too much variable to be easily priced, since a guy like Syaoran could make a clone with 100% of his ninjutsu and attack with what is essentially 5000 Ninjutsu modifier)

The other two effects on the Rasengan are pretty similar to its old effects, as the Rasengan in canon pretty commonly Charlie Brown’s their opponent out of their clothes. It breaks like everything it hits, which includes barriers, so it does a percentage bonus to constructs. Also; Note that this does now come with an SP cost, something that Tony has been attempting to get done for awhile now. The only other big thing is that the Skill itself gives the jutsu their usage limits and it future proofs alternate versions, preventing the user from using 2 Sennin rank Rasengan variants in the same battle.

This still requires permission from cntrstrk14 to learn. He and Eechi-Go both gave this a once over previously, so no surprises.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Cellar Door

[Hardcore Skittlez]

Okay! I'm glad you remade this, and I think it's definitely looking a lot better than the super swiss-army-knife jutsu that its previous incarnation is. Paying more chakra for more damage is a solid mechanic, the ratios are fair enough for a jutsu of this nature, and even on the top end it doesn't add that much damage. I think that this still might be a bit too cheap, but I'll break down my math as follows.

 

Item Destruction:  I will assume that most characters will have their passive item bonuses spread over multiple items. My gut tells me to assume 5(One for each basic Elemental Shield type), but I think 3 might be a more reasonable number to operate from just based on my own previous combat experience. That means the cost of item destruction will break down as follows(Operating under the safe assuption that passive Defense is spread across 3 items; this does not account for activated effects on weapons or the cost of breaking weapons). Perhaps I am being too generous, but I will give a 50% reduction for the "option" to pick and choose what items you'll apply.

 

• Chunin: 80 * 3 = 240 Chakra | 240 * .5 = 120 Chakra

• Jonin: 160 * 3 = 480 Chakra | 480 * .5 = 240 Chakra

• Sennin: 320 * 3 = 960 Chakra | 960 * .5 = 480 Chakra

 

 

Damage: Costs are fairly straight forward, so:

 

• Chunin: 175 Damage * (4/5) = 140 Chakra

• Jonin: 350 Damage * (2/3) = 234 Chakra

• Sennin: 600 * (2/3) = 400 Chakra

 

 

Barrier Busting: Before I get into the costs here, the current wording on this simply will not fly. I'm okay with this busting barriers/shields for sure, but extra damage should only apply to the Barrier/Shield itself. Increasing the total damage with such a blanket rule is kind of silly and can let you set up some really silly abusive mechanics(Like... making your "nuke setup" techniques give them a 5 hp shield just to pump up damage.) I'm sure you can come up with something much cleaner, but this is what comes to my mind:  "Any time this technique would deal damage to a Barrier, Shield or other Construct, the total damage of this technique is increased by x%; upon the destruction of a Barrier, Shield, or Construct damaged by this technique, any additional damage granted through this effect does not persist to the combatant protected by the aforementioned." Now onto the costs. I'll run this at half the cost of Critical Boosts.

 

• Chunin: 260 * 1.2 = 312

• Jonin: 474 * 1.4 = 664

• Sennin: 880 * 1.6 = 1408

 

 

Seal-less: This is going to be straightforward... but very expensive.

 

• Chunin: 312 * 1.5 = 468

• Jonin: 664 * 1.5 = 996

• Sennin: 1408 * 1.5 = 2112

 

 

Let's Talk Reductions: So, with the final costs of these jutsu... we see that they are pretty unreasonably high. There are some reductions to be given here, and this is how I see them potentially breaking down:

 

• Skill Point Cost: Because of the SP cost here, I think that we can safely remove the cost of the Seal-less descriptor. This will make it more valuable than the Sealing Prowess skill on paper, but the usage limits counteracts this a little.

• Training Requirements: So, this is going to take a little bending of interpretation, but I will translate cost reductions here as follows: Each 10 posts of Training, rounded up, will count as 1 SP toward an Inner-Calm style base cost reduction in my mind. So, with 45 training posts rounded to 50, this would roughly be -5 SP worth of an Inner Calm-like effect to me. This would reduce the Chunin Rank by 50, the Jonin by 75, and the Sennin by 100.

• Usage Limitations: With the usage limitations being fairly strict, I'll apply some additional reduction effect based on the Inner Calm-like reduction granted above. The Chunin rank can be used at base 2 times per battle, so I will increase the value of the reduction effect by 50% for that one. The Jonin/Sennin can be used once per battle, so I will increase the value of the reduction effect by 100% for those. This would make the Chunin reduction worth 75, the Jonin worth 150, and the Sennin worth 200.

 

 

Total Costs: Okay! With the numbers above, let's break down what I think the costs for these abilities should be.

 

• Chunin: 312 - 75 = 237 Chakra

• Jonin: 664 - 150 = 514 Chakra

• Sennin: 880 - 200 = 680 Chakra.

 

So that leaves us with exceptionally expensive jutsu. What's to be done about further cost reductions? Well, I think there are 3 obvious solutions that might work.

 

1.) Reduce the Item Destruction to a 50% Chakra. This would cut the cost of item destruction in half. Costs would become:

 

• Chunin: 60(New Item Destro Cost) + 140(Damage) = 200 | 200 * 1.2(Barrier Buster) = 240 | 240 - 75 = 165 Chakra

• Jonin: 120(New Item Destro Cost) + 234(Damage) = 354 | 354 * 1.4(Barrier Buster) = 496 | 496 - 150 = 346 Chakra

• Sennin: 240(New Item Destro Cost) + 400(Damage) = 640 | 640 * 1.6(Barrier Buster) = 1024 | 1024 - 200 = 824 Chakra.

 

We can see this is really good at Chunin, pretty good at Jonin, and holycrapwhy expensive at Sennin, even still.

 

2.) Reduce the Barrier Buster mechanic's value by half. Costs would become:

 

• Chunin: 260 * 1.1 = 286 | 286 - 75 = 211 Chakra

• Jonin: 474 * 1.2 = 569 | 569 - 150 = 419 Chakra

• Sennin: 880 * 1.3 = 1144 | 1144 - 200 = 944 Chakra

 

We can see that this is "okay" at Chunin, "expensive" at Jonin, and still "holycrapwhy" expensive at Sennin. So...

 

3.) Reduce Item Destruction to 50%, tweak barrier buster ability to achieve ideal costs. For this, I'll leave Chunin alone and then drop Jonin/Sennin to 30% bonus damage.

 

• Chunin: 165 Chakra, Calculated on option 1

• Jonin: 354(New Item Destro) * 1.3 = 460 | 460 - 150 = 310 Chakra

• Sennin: 640(New Item Destro) * 1.3 = 832 | 832 - 200 = 632 Chakra

 

We can see now that the chakra costs are favorable and the effects are still potent. Though it loses out on some bonus damage to barriers/shields at jonin/sennin, you can still amp up the damage by a pretty significant amount with the + damage mechanic inherent to the Rasengan anyways.

[Cellar Door]

Item Destruction:

I'm not sure exactly why you decided to use the 5 Elemental Shields when gauging this effect, but it makes no sense at all. These are all Void. So the only Resistance/Defense/Shield attribute that's going to do anything is the basic Chakra one, and I'm willing to bet that if we were to look through all of the characters past and present, we might find three... that inexplicably have a double set of Chakra Shield.

We have to keep in mind that the worst case for this effect is 0, and after the first successful hit from this technique, subsequent hits will always be 0. It is an open ended effect but it's highly unlikely that this will ever destroy more than a single item. Best case scenario, I'm thinking this will pop maybe 2 items, but given that it'll only ever pop items once per battle we should scale that back to 1.5. 

• Chunin: 80 * 1.5 = 120 Chakra | 120 * .5 = 60 Chakra

• Jonin: 160 * 1.5 = 240 Chakra | 240 * .5 = 120 Chakra

• Sennin: 320 * 1.5 = 480 Chakra | 480 * .5 = 240 Chakra

Similar Effect

Damage:

• Chunin: 175 Damage * (4/5) = 140 Chakra

• Jonin: 350 Damage * (2/3) = 234 Chakra

• Sennin: 600 * (2/3) = 400 Chakra

Barrier Busting:

I went ahead and adjusted the wording. It was still the place-marker effect that I'd left it at when I was drafting it. I apparently forgot to put the final spin on that piece of the effect, still not happy with the flow, but it does the job. However, your cost breakdown there is just about fuckin' bonkers. Cntrstrk generally costs 1.5x to barriers and shields at +15-20%, so a break-down like this seems reasonable.

• Chunin: 200 * 1.05 = 210

• Jonin: 354 * 1.15 = 407

• Sennin: 640 * 1.25 = 800

:I Example... that doesn't appear to pay for this effect at all.

Seal-Less:

• Chunin: 231 * 1.5 = 346.5

• Jonin: 453.1 * 1.5 = 679.65

• Sennin: 900 * 1.5 = 1350

Cost Reduction:

• Skill Point Cost: I agree that this is a solid reason to throw out the Seal-less cost, however it is important to keep in mind that any similar skill that grants a Seal-less technique on NA currently does so at 0 SP expense to the purchaser. Of course with Sharingan Binding, you have some hoops to jump through, and Rinnegan Binding you have to wait until rather late game, in both situations they are ultimately free seal-less effects, where this always remains -2. So, when shoring up the numbers, I'll probably use this and the other reasonable restrictions that balance Rasengan as the reason to keep its costs down.

• Training Requirements: These look fine, I suppose, while still rather arbitrary. However one of the largest hurdles behind the Rasengan is the time requirements that a user is required put in both in mastering the effect, and in becoming a character that is worthy of the technique in the eyes of Mari. With those barriers in mind, I think adding +25, +50, and +100 to the reductions here isn't out of line, making them -75, -125, and -200.

• Usage Limitations: While, I'm still not really sold on this ad hoc pricing, your own rules after would adjust them as follows; Chunin reduction worth 112, Jonin worth 250, Sennin worth 400.

Final Costs:

•Chunin: 210 - 112 = 98

•Jonin: 407 - 250 = 157

•Sennin: 800 - 400 = 400

So, now we have an equally compelling argument for some costs that are as aggressively low as yours are aggressively high, and to be frank, I'm not going to neuter this technique for you when it's by far the most reasonable Rasengan incarnation yet. 150, 250, and 450 feel like plenty agreeable costs considering the SP cost, immense training and time investment, and usage limitations.

[Hardcore Skittlez]

Item Destruction: I must have neglected to fully explain my reasoning here. I was not treating this as if it triggered against each item that had an Elemental Shields attribute on it-- I was operating under the thought that it is optimal to split your Elemental Shields across multiple items... ideally one per item. Many characters also apply passive Defense stats through items, so I believe it is reasonable to assume that they would sprinkle those stats across the various items that their multitude of Shield attributes were located on. However, some people stack all of their eggs on a single item, so I settled on the average number between the two- "3". 2 may be more reasonable as you say, so I think we can move forward with the math assuming that this will on average destroy 2 items at a time. So, the cost would be:

 

• Chunin: 80 * 2 = 160 Chakra | 160 * .5 = 80 Chakra

• Jonin: 160 * 2 = 320 Chakra | 320 * .5 = 160 Chakra

• Sennin: 320 * 2 = 640 Chakra | 640 * .5 = 320 Chakra

• For what it's worth, this comes out to the same as just paying to destroy one item at a time. I think this is a pretty fair middle ground.

 

You are correct that it will likely only pop items once per battle, but I don't think that should scale back the cost at all; I can't think of anything else that gets exceptions for only being useful once, because the logic is typically "well you'll only use it once", but this doesn't become useless after you've popped an item. It's still a very potent damaging technique and may force opponents to opt not to apply their items to mitigate Rasengan out of fear of losing those items. The above costs, which come to the same as destroying a single item, are more than fair when considering that it is also possible to destroy 3 or more simultaneously. Regarding the similar effect in Primitive World Detachment- I'm glad you pointed this out, because this technique is straight busted. I moved it back to be reworked or at least re-costed, and it is worth noting that this was from 2009 and we consider many things from before 2010 to be unfit for use either in combat or as an example. I know that you know this, but this is a hot button technique and I am sure that the new approval staff will be reading this discussion and it's worth mentioning for their sake.

 

 

Barrier Busting: You're right on this one, I was pretty mistaken with my costs. The ones you propose are a little generous on the first two and a little high on the last one- but emphasis on the "little" here, so I think it's acceptable. However, with the above item destruction costs, the equation would be slightly adjusted to:

 

• Chunin: 220 * 1.05 = 231

• Jonin: 394 * 1.15 = 454

• Sennin: 720 * 1.25 = 900

 

@ The example: I went ahead and moved that back and repriced it accordingly. It shouldn't have gotten away with that effect for free!

 

 

Cost Reductions:

 

• Skill Point Cost: Both of the listed examples are bloodlines, one of which is an advanced system-- it's pretty common for bloodlines to be able to get away with some abnormal attributes like that. The most reasonable comparison is Sealing Prowess, as this will likely end up netting you a bit more than 30 JP of Seal-less stuff when you consider the Elemental Infusions and any outlying variations such as Rasenshuriken, Vanishing Rasengan, Planetary Rasengan, etc, etc. Since they all have usage restrictions, I think that it balances out going ahead of 30 jp potential. What this basically means is that for -2 you're getting the effects of Sealing Prowess and access to these potent techniques. Still, we ultimately agree on this costing, so there's no sense in getting too hung up on the fine details.

• Training Requirements: They are pretty arbitrary, but without something else to properly base this on... since it's a trendsetter, arbitrary is sort of where we have to start. I do not agree on additional cost reductions based on lack of availability, however. If this is to be adopted as the normal, anyone could apply these restrictions to their own "super exclusive npc" that knows the desired custom "signature technique"... which really isn't how things have worked before at all. Beyond that, if we base any addition or subtraction to cost based on availability, this would need to be resubmitted and made more expensive each time a new character learned it-- because it then becomes that much easier to access. I am open to suggestions on alternative cost reduction methods, but using accessibility as a price point isn't really fair.

• Usage Limitations: You are of course welcome to propose alternative pricing methods, and I'm more than open to checking them out. That being said, using "this isn't as bad as x" isn't really a solid foundation for something to stand on. Stabbing one person isn't as "bad" as stabbing five people, but that doesn't make it any more okay. My objective here isn't to screw "you" out of an optimal technique, it's to make sure that Rasengan is a solid foundation for future techniques to base themselves off of. I believe that having a reasonable, mathematical, price scheme for it is the best and most fair way to do this. Shifting away from arbitrarily busted techniques "just because" is definitely positive for the health of the game, and it helps us future-proof it by giving concrete reasoning behind its cost/effects. 

 

 

Final Costs with the aforementioned Adjustments:

 

• Chunin: 231 - 75 = 156 | Rounded to 155 or 160. Your original pricing appears to be pretty spot on here.

• Jonin: 454 - 150 = 304 | Round to 300 for cleanliness. Close to your original price, still a good price point

• Sennin: 900 - 200 = 700 | Still significantly more expensive. I think this is just the point that's going to have to be adjusted the most, because its equations just pop it out really expensive. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Hardcore Skittlez

[Cellar Door]

Item Destruction:

Regarding the similar effect in Primitive World Detachment- I'm glad you pointed this out, because this technique is straight busted. I moved it back to be reworked or at least re-costed, and it is worth noting that this was from 2009 and we consider many things from before 2010 to be unfit for use either in combat or as an example. I know that you know this, but this is a hot button technique and I am sure that the new approval staff will be reading this discussion and it's worth mentioning for their sake.

... You saw that technique get used three times in combat in the last few weeks. Three times. How come you didn't bring something up about it then, especially if something from 2009 is "unfit to be used in combat or as an example"? I was under the impression that since it saw so much play in that last match of the Exams against the two Admins, and there were no red flags raised by anyone, that it was fair game, example-wise.

In either case, I think I'll wait for a second opinion about this effect.

Cost Reduction:

• Training Requirements: You're deeply misunderstanding the difference between a time investment and exclusivity. Words can be hammered out in an evening, even lots of words. However the IC time required is just as much of a cost to learning these techniques, and should be considered as such regardless of how you feel about them. So once again, +25|+50|+100 for the ranks.

[cntrstrk14]

So part of this confusion is my own fault. Upon using Primitive World Detachment in battle me and Azure chatted about it and how it should be resubmitted. However, we also both agreed that though the pricing was up for debate (the big factor being that it randomly assigns destruction, which more times than not kill a bunch of kunai or some other crappy items rather than the piece of armor you are aiming for), even more so of a problem was the terrible user experience it created by making the enemy roll so many times to destroy stuff. TL;DR — we decided that I would resubmit the technique designing it from the ground up because it just wasn't doing a good job.

 

As for this Rasengan: I am a fan of how this came out after you pitched the short version to me the other day. The fact that the skill only does a cap on usage in battle is a great use of it. The technique itself is very streamlined as well. I admit, I am not a fan of losing the Defense ignoring because of how long it has had that effect, but I also realize that that kind of effect is really what the Chidori wants as a legendary jutsu. I agree that 'Charlie Browning' your opponent out of their equipment makes a lot of sense from the flavor of the attack and could be a suitable replacement but...

 

Before this can be approved, I would like the current owners or near owners of Rasengan to chime in on how they feel. Specifically, Eechi-go and Leon (is there anyone else with Rasengan currently?). It would be really upsetting if Leon was super pumped about Defense busting and then the thing he has worked so hard for just gets pulled out from underneath him.

 

Rasengan Training; Containment: You list 'Gennin' here, but are you ever going to make any? If not I would just remove this rank and number. It is the difference between trying to account for 4 total battle uses vs. 6 total battle uses, and it will be unfavorable for costs if you don't even plan to use it.

 

Sealless Jutsu: I was kind of hoping the -2 SP could hand wave away some of the pricing, but at 18 JP already (15 JP with reductions) that is a solid -1 SP for the seal-less alone, using 'Sealing Prowess' as a comparison. If you can have four total uses per battle, that would be around 20-24 JP worth of techniques you can use. However, you are not free to pick all Sennin Rank and have to be Chuunin, Chuunin, Jounin, Sennin so it is not as potent in Sealing Prowess as far as that goes. However, that said it brings me to another thought...

 

JP Cost: I can't help but feel that -6 is a steal for any one of these. Just using basic rules, the maximum cost (with bonus x) of the last Sennin one is 600 CP, which is -9 JP. That is not even accounting for the other abilities that are being offset by an SP cost. Those other abilities should likely be reflected in the JP for the total cost, otherwise the SP seems to be 'double dipping' and getting CP reductions and JP reductions. I would suggest that we at least start at the main site for these of -8 (extrapolated at 30 CP per uptick), -8 and -9. We can probably look at possibly a larger deriving for these three then? I'm not sure, would like to know your thoughts here.

 

Chakra Costs: I like the discussion going on here, I'll let you two keep hammering the numbers rather than throwing another cook in. I think that a compromise somewhere between the two of you feels right to me, there are a lot of variables in the air here and in the end its going to come down to some amount of just 'what feels right'. I think the key will being clearly figuring out just exactly what the -2 SP is paying for (I highly suggest Sealless as it is going to be the biggest cost increase).

[Cellar Door]

I spoke with Nick already, and he was largely in favor of the change. The one thing he suggested was making it so that any player, regardless of whether or not they knew the Rasengan could increase the damage that it does. I didn't hate the idea, but we only ever see the Rasengan getting beefed like that by random people in movies and stuff, and I was always kind of under the impression that Naruto had like Path of the Tactician and could Coalesce jutsu with other people.

Admittedly, I totally forgot that Ren was training for it, and I would love to hear Leon's opinion of everything.

Rasengan Training; Containment: There is a weakened version of Rasengan called Chibitama Rasengan that I had considered making. Partially because it's part of NA canon that Raz's kid Heishin can use it, but it doesn't really fit the full scheme of the Rasengan. If anything, I would probably make it so that it could be purchased before all of the Rasengan Training was complete, perhaps after Stage 2, a character could pick it up, and it would be nominally worse, but in the end, I really threw it down for flavor. I can remove it if I need to, or add the Genin version to this list.

Sealless Jutsu: I have gotta say, I think if we're going to be looking at this and grading its costs we're going to have to give it about half the weight that we normally would with just any technique. Not because Rasengan is somehow more deserving of being Sealless than any other technique, but because even if you don't need seals, you still need your hands. While you might have a weapon equipped and be able to Rasengan, you could easily put the 2 SP here toward 1-handed seals and do the same. But you can't make use of it while you're under Bound; Paired Arms for instance, in the same way you could with a Kamui, or some other sealless ranged attack. Functionally, it's just less potent.

JP Cost: I'll be honest, I don't remember what sort of math I originally used to come to the conclusion of 15 total JP. I know I really liked it because it was divisible by five, and I think after that I didn't worry about it. I'll increase the JP and stuff as needed.

[Hardcore Skittlez]

Seal-less Jutsu: The technique doesn't actually indicate that anywhere in its effects or rules. Without a line specifically indicating that it requires usage of your hands in some capacity, the rules assume that a Seal-Less Jutsu can be used independently of your hands.

 

That aside, I spoke with Tony in some length about the weight of exclusivity and IC time training requirements and the results of that discussion were largely inconclusive. However, we did agree that if IC Training time was actually going to be a metric by which this(or other things) got bonuses, there needed to be concrete numbers behind it. Similarly, if you don't want to use the numbers I've offered above, we'd like to see what pricing equations you used to reach your current prices. If you wouldn't mind providing these things, it might help us understand why this technique's later stages are able to be drastically less expensive than they would be if they were a normal technique. 

[Cellar Door]

Are you kidding me? On both points?

Post number four...



 

[cntrstrk14]

A.) This should probably be "Single Handed" rather than "Sealless". That would be more clear and bring the cost down. Sealless jutsu can be used even if you have no arms, which doesn't seem like the intent. Post #4 doesn't talk about this at all.

 

B.) The information in post #4 is entirely insufficient in terms of training cost reductions. I have no idea how you got to the numbers or, more importantly, how I would replicate a training requirement cost reduction in future legendary jutsu (which will definitely pop up citing this as an example). I agree that these training requirements do carry weight, but if you want to use them and quantify them I want you to propose how to quantify that so that it can be replicated. Post #4 just throws out 25, 50 and 100 and I don't understand these numbers at all.

 

So, since Peter and myself are both apparently unable to find where in post #4 you addressed either of these points that he asked about I must unfortunately insist you to spell it out for our dim minds.

[Cellar Door]

A.) The answer to this definitely wasn't in post four, but I sure didn't even dignify that with a response, because it was so stupid and obtuse it made me wonder just how the person asking it could function as a moderator. 3.16 is a rule that covers this situation, and it fully allows anyone trying to make a Rasengan shoot out of their ass to be denied that action because it's not what the technique does.

B.) How much math does it need? I picked a base number and scaled it up by rank, because it looked most fair and agreeable (since you already said that this will probably come down to what feels right), but if you want me to do a hard math reduction, even the most reasonable damn thing is going to make the increase even larger than it was before. We'll say since the time requirements are a little fluid and can be altered it's worth a 15% reduction from the total on each rank.

Total cost of Rasengan (ignoring Seal-less)

• Chunin: 210 * .15 = 31 (30)

• Jonin: 407 * .15 = 61 (60)

• Sennin: 800 * .15 = 120

We can see that if you were to reduce proportionate amounts from each rank, 5, 10, and 20, we get exactly the numbers that I came up with... but 12% is a weird choice mathematcally.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Cellar Door

[cntrstrk14]

A.) Well seeing as I had the exact same concerns that Peter expressed, and pushed him to post because I was laying in bed, I guess that means I am also, stupid, obtuse, and unfit to be a moderator much less an admin. So, seeing as how I apparently am unfit for my station, and there is no higher power to hand this approval off to, I will have to Deny it until I have found myself more suited to fulfill my role as an administrator.

Edit: Seriously though, if you are going to name call then we are hitting the brakes. My volunteer staff and myself dont need to weather your insults because you feel frustrated. This thread is done until you can continue without ad hominem. I will be in contact with you later.

[cntrstrk14]

I am lifting my denial. Please refrain from ad hominem when discussing opinions.

 

As for the discussion of training requirement and cost reductions, I think that your numbers are pretty reasonable but PMM has started a discussion on this in Artificer chat and I would like to see the outcome of that. So this will be the last piece we discuss as we get that together (he just started the discussion tonight, a little while ago). This will be important because it will also reflect on Chidori and will be a tool we can use for pricing going forward rather than a hand wavy thing that some people don't give any weight to and others give too much. 

 

That leaves us with the Seal-less discussion. As written, you can use Rasengan with both hands cut off. However, you've expressed that this is not what you intend and also not how you want it to be priced. Because of this, I propose instead of making this 'Seal-less' you make this 'Single Handed'. This would be a new tag for jutsu, but rather self explanatory. You need at least one free hand to preform this. I believe this should also be carried over to other creations such as Chidori and my own God of Fire, both of which basically do the "my hand is magical and I'mma gonna stab you with it." 

[Cellar Door]

I don't like that proposal. It would replace seal-less when Rasengan is definitely seal-less, and that just doesn't seem right. It's just less useful because it's a melee attack that requires one hand. It seems sloppy to need to put that somewhere, when we have a whole description and three skills detailing how the attack is used. That will become a trend, and we'll start seeing more and more tags;

Taijutsu [style; Lotus | Melee; Kick]

Why is that sort of thing necessary when the description would tell you that it's a melee kick? I still maintain that 3.16 analysis will do this sort of job better than any tag would. I can foresee staff and members having to learn all the various types of attacks that can and can't be used when you're entangled or shackled or what have you because you can't reach your opponent. Another level of complexity is not necessary when you could just go;

"3.16; I'm entangled, can I not use this?"

"Staff; Correct, you cannot use that because your legs are stuck."

[cntrstrk14]

Hm, I guess where I disagree is that 3.16 is about one time occurrences that reward good role play and situation awareness. However you want this to always not work when the player has 'Bound [Paired Arms]'. In this case, the opponent needs to invoke 3.16 if the Rasengan user tries to use the technique with their foot while under the effects of 'Bound [Paired Arms]' because it is technically Seal-less and by the word of the law they are allowed to still use this. This then gets sloppy because if we rule in the favor of the opponent here we have to rewind the Rasengan player's turn and say they couldn't have done that action, forcing them to redo their turn. 

 

How about this instead. Keep it 'Seal-less' but in the effects put the line near the end 'Character must have at least one hand free to use this jutsu.' ?

[Cellar Door]

I could do that, but by the same token, how many techniques that attack with a hand are going to need to be resubbed in the same manner? Every Taijutsu would need to go back and say the user either needs a free arm or free leg to hit or kick them with. I really don't like the precedent that it sets, when everyone should be able to read the description and go "Well, I'm bound arms, and this says it needs an arm. Fuck."

Normally, I'm all for an effect being very well spelled-out, but we're in this weird design fringe where it would be an extreme hassle to fix while common sense and an arbiter can work without having to muck around with the fundamental way we look at jutsu. I think the description should be the key. We managed to approve two previous incarnations of the Rasengan that didn't need this, but I'm sure if you'd asked anyone on the site they would have said that if you're paired bound it would be impossible to use.

[cntrstrk14]

I think the key problem I am have is this: I have trouble properly costing 'Seal-less' on a Ninjutsu that still requires one hand free to use without properly saying so. With Taijutsu, the free use of legs and arms is part of the territory and is normal thought process for someone to say 'oh, right, kicking requires legs and shackled makes that hard'. Ninjutsu that use melee is a bit murkier, but most players would understand that if I have a fire fist, I need to be able to punch with that fist to make it work.

 

However when you put Seal-less on a jutsu you are invoking an idea of being able to do this jutsu while standing still. On the one hand, on a Naruto RP everyone should know what Rasengan is, but on the other hand this has to be the jutsu that everyone else will be looking to for their own creations. For instance, my God of Fire could easily be confused as not needing a hand because it doesn't come with the baggage of canon knowledge and is its own creation, but it uses Rasengan as a guide and will likely follow changes made here. Many people less saavy than me will do the same in the future and just make assumptions that things are clear when they might not be.

 

So to summarize: Because this is a Ninjutsu with 'Seal-less' I feel compelled to spell out the one hand requirement. Seal-less Ninjutsu is a phrase that pushes players to override the description with their own belief because 'well, the rules say its seal-less and KC and cntrstrk14 approved this so they must have been okay with it being used with no hands!'. As such, I wouldn't see this necessary to carry over to any other jutsu that doesn't have other 'limb specific' ruling that could cause confusion.

 

 

That all said, I am not terrible entrenched on this opinion. I could concede it if you and others don't agree with my thoughts laid out above.

[PandaMattMatt]

I would like to chime in and say that I agree with KC. I can't remember where I saw it, but there is a guideline for review staff that dictates that we should read the description and make sure it makes sense with the jutsu.

 

In the same sense, I remember in the Arrakis tournament when my character Hinoko was bound paired arms by Tsukiyo. By using a jutsu that, in the description, said it was a kick, I was able to continue my offense. The technique wasn't required to say "This may be used while bound paired arms" or something. It was in the description that it was a kick attack.

 

I agree that we should not be trying to reinvent the wheel, but make sure people know to focus on what direction that wheel is spinning. We already have a firm grasp of what tags are needed and what status effects do. So, why do we need to overlap the two continuously and make a new hassle. 

 

If Kazuto or Ren (I think that's the other one) are bound paired arms, it should fall on actual roleplay to determine whether or not Rasengan can be used.

 

For example, if the arms ar bound at the wrist, it still leaves plenty of roleplay room for Kazuto to charge with a rasengan in his hands. However, if a techniques describes the attack as binding his arms to his side, he'd be eff'd. 

 

Putting more emphasis on description and making a point of players actually utilizing the description of techniques is paramount to trying to determine if Rasengan should be Seal-Less or Single Handed.

[Eechi-go]

This may be a stupid fucking question, but...

 

Is there any reason someone can't just use the bottom of their foot for the Rasengan? We've never seen it done, sure, but we've also never seen anyone pushed to the point where it'd be necessary. The jutsu requires no hand gestures at all to preform, and I would assume someone who's mastered Rasengan could figure out how to apply it to the bottom of their foot using the basis of waterwalking and treewalking.

 

Sure, a dropkick Rasengan might look silly, but I don't see any real reason it couldn't be done given that the tenketsu in both the hand and foot areas looks relatively similar.

 

I just feel like we may be over-complicating this seal-less thing.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Eechi-go

[Cellar Door]

Again, it's more of an RP logistics thing. I would say trying to use it with your foot would be a definite 3.16 request. Inherently, using your foot to attack with this is horrible because it's melee. You can't very well hop on one foot after you enemy with the Rasengan attached to the bottom of your other foot. And if your arms are chained to the ground or something the only chance you have for a foot rasengan to work is if your opponent is standing in front of you and not moving.

So, while Goku could shoot a Kamehameha from his feet and it worked because it was a laser and it propelled him into the air, doing anything like that with Rasengan would look super ridiculous and actually hitting with it would be hard as hell, since you couldn't take steps with the foot the Rasengan was attached to.

Short Answer; If that's something that were to be attempted, I would think it would be a 3.16 Request, and I would think the only way it would work was if it got some serious accuracy reductions.

[Eechi-go]

the only chance you have for a foot rasengan to work is if your opponent is standing in front of you and not moving.

 

This is exactly how the Rasengan already works at this stage. You need to be point blank with the opponent to land it regardless of whether or not you're aiming with your foot or your hand. I don't see this as a particularly strenuous action, all you'd have to do is approach like you would normally and move to side kick the opponent while channeling the Rasengan during the retraction of the leg once it's off the ground, which is already the same action you'd make with your hand anyway if you were using it normally. This is probably even easier if you're already using chakra in your feet while you run. After all, it takes what, like half a second for people who mastered the Rasengan to form it usually? Maybe one?

 

Not to mention there's other easy ways to get this off, such as a dynamic entry-esque jump and kick, or a vertical jump and dropkick, both of which would not even bring the ninja's foot movement into question.

 

I don't see why it would need an accuracy reduction either. If you can aim a kick, you can aim a Rasengan, just like how if you can aim a punch, you can aim a Rasengan. Either way you need to hit an opponent point blank who may already be moving. I'm not going to get into some dumb fight over this because it's just not worth it, but this is exactly what I would do any/everytime my hands got bound and I wanted to use Rasengan, so I figured I'd might as well offer it up as a solution.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Eechi-go

[Cellar Door]

Is doing something like this as a 3.16 not acceptable to you, or are we doing a just for the sake of argument sort of thing? I don't own this and am always open to suggestion, so if you have an alternate proposal I'm all ears, but as a general rule if a technique said a ninja could expel fire chakra from their mouth, they could probably also expel that fire from their ass... doesn't mean they should be allowed to do it in battle.

There's nothing stopping a character who learns the Rasengan from creating Foot-Style Rasengan as a technique that they can use with their feet if they want reliable usages of Kicksengans.

[Eechi-go]

A kickable Rasengan would have absolutely no practical statistical difference because the technique is already seal-less, so that would be pointless to make. Also I think comparing this to shooting fire out of your butthole is an unnecessary stretch. We've (thankfully) never seen anyone applying any chakra in such a way before, but using one's feet is a common application of chakra and used pretty frequently.

 

I really don't think it's 3.16 worthy because it's already marked as seal-less, and this is perfectly within the realm of what the technique already does statistically. I'm just offering up a simple idea as to why it would still function. The reason Nibble's sensing through Samehada while blind thing was 3.16 worthy was because it made sense lorewise, but it had no statistical ability that corresponded with it. This is kind of a weird situation where the roles are reversed- we haven't seen anyone use their feet in canon, but statistically seal-less means they could.

 

Otherwise, I don't see the point in keeping seal-less and having to pay extra for it if a character still can't use it the second their arms are bound together, especially since binding one arm tends to be a very fringe case, now more so than ever with this new era of hybrids, I'd imagine. It's usually smarter to aim for both. Sure, canonically it's seal-less, but not cost-effective if it won't do what it's supposed to.

 

I guess the only other solution I have in mind at the moment is perhaps letting the user decide whether or not they want to use two hands or one hand to create the Rasengan, and let them choose to increase the cost at the time of the attack to account for it rather than giving it a blanket seal-less cost that doesn't do it's job effectively anyway.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Eechi-go

[Cellar Door]

Well, the Rasengan really isn't paying for its seal-lessness anyway. Whether it retains its status as a seal-less technique or not, the cost is entirely offset by the SP that is paid to use the technique.

A lot of this issue comes down to RP and perspective. Tony and I talked pretty extensively about it, and basically it comes down to what is situational in the RP and both players involved need to be vigilant. If the user wants to do something that is normally outside of the confines of what the Rasengan can do, then they should seek out permission from staff, and if the opponent feels like their opponent has done something that's outside the realm of possibility they should speak with staff as well.

The reason we came to this decision is because Rasengan is an extremely basic technique mechanically. (I know it's super high levels of chakra control and all that, but were talking just motion here.) The user holds out their hand, runs up, hits the opponent. If we need to have special stipulations just for that, then we need to have them for just about everything, and NA really doesn't need that kind of reinvention of the wheel.

I personally think that using the Rasengan with one's foot would be hard as hell, since it took so much training to walk up trees, and Rasengan needs much more training than just that, but that's open to the interpretation of the player, their GM and staff, just like all RP.

If the cost of Rasengan's seal-lessness is going to be lessened it probably won't be overly noticeable, but really it is just an important factor to consider when reviewing the technique itself, as a melee attack its seallessness is not as useful as that of a ranged attack.

I know this response wasn't a lot of help Eechi, but it doesn't leave the possibility to do that, one just needs to RP it properly and speak with staff and such. In some situations that could work, but if you're chained to the floor, it likewise wouldn't work.