Defense And Resistance Revamp

[Eechi-go]

Accuracy and evasion are a far more pressing issue. There is a reason people don't stack defensive stats. Why bother when it's better used stacking evasion? Take less damage, or no damage, which would you choose?

[Muyasuki]

Personally, I can see the reason why someone would want to a revamp of those stats, but at the same time I don't see the reason for it. I know my character is more defense orientated than most others would be but at the same time, I was well aware of the faults in that(which is also one of the reasons I choose to do it that way).

While if you're looking just at its direct comparion with Evasion, I think that its much safer to stack your defenses rather than evasion because while you may get hit with lower evasion, that damage could be significantly lower than if you relied on evasion alone. Plus if you stack HP as well, you've got a defensive tank.

[Eechi-go]

That's untrue, however. If you simply stack your defensive stats, you're forced to split between the two. Not only that, You will almost always have a lower damage reduction then the opposing modifier. Include the base damage from the technique and it can become very pointless.

Battles have 90% to hit and 15% far too often. Evasion simply makes or breaks your ninja in the long run.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Eechi-go

[Aberacht]

Which is why there should be more trap ninjas. 5% chance to dodge for Set Traps, anyone?

[PhantasyIV]

I keep my character fairly even - the stats are all within about 200 of each other with the exception of my character's specialty, which is higher but not abundantly so.

I look at some of the characters now, and they have stats >1000 before they're even Chuunin. Without looking, I don't believe my character has any stats >1000 even after being a Jounin for a while. They take an Offense, Speed, Evasion, and Accuracy if it's Nin/Tai and quite literally 0 out the rest.

What really annoys me is that somehow a character with 0 Defense has Iron Will, or 0 Concentration (and sealed Genjutsu) with Seeing Mind. This encourages a lack of defensive because if their speed is high enough, they attain the 3:1 turn ratio and thus if they ignore two attacks they have a minimum of 4 attack turns (assuming they were stunned but just took no damage in either enemy turn). Also that is assuming they are hit - as stated above, the 15/90 to-hit chance is far too common.

Plus, characters can easily make a response jutsu with a 5% chance of failing that ignores an attack completely (again iterating the 4 attacks without a problem scenario).

Unfortunately, due to the fact that everyone gets busy, the fights tend to be 1v1. I think we all agree that this is (or was intended to be) a team-based game. Since fights don't happen on a 3v3 scale, nobody has a reason to take teamwork skills unless they have clones and want to have cannon fodder. (Clones w/Savior = point #3)

I agree that ninja aren't meant to be hit, but the other thing is, this game is designed around direct combat. Even with traps and Genjutsu, very little is as subtle as ninja should be. Sorry.

EDIT: Maybe if jutsu that cancelled/reduced incoming attacks and effects etc. were limited by Res/Def. Combining the two into one stat with a 30:5 as stated earlier is also a favorable idea. But this is for the Mod/Min to decide after the arc closes.

Another idea is that a nin takes rsepective tank damage = Offense mod - respective defense stat; half this to health; both min 0. It would be a good representation that every action takes a toll on the body. It's not as severe to the user, but it makes a lot of sense. A taijutsu user is just as likely to break his own leg with a powerful kick, a ninjutsu user to burn herself with a fireball (being at the source), and a genjutsu user to get a nosebleed from doing some powerful psionics. /EDIT

Edited August 11, 2008 by PhantasyIV

[Eechi-go]

Another idea is that a nin takes rsepective tank damage = Offense mod - respective defense stat; half this to health; both min 0. It would be a good representation that every action takes a toll on the body. It's not as severe to the user, but it makes a lot of sense. A taijutsu user is just as likely to break his own leg with a powerful kick, a ninjutsu user to burn herself with a fireball (being at the source), and a genjutsu user to get a nosebleed from doing some powerful psionics. /EDIT

We're talking about a fantasy RP, no one in Naruto hurts themselves from attacking at all. Kimmimaro could pull bones out of his skin without flinching, Lee can preform dizzying taijutsu attacks without feeling any pain whatsoever.

That in mind, no one is going to want to play crippled ninjas who take damage from their own attacks. Besides, through training and learning each jutsu they own, they've learned mastery over it, which keeps them from harming themselves.

[PhantasyIV]

Said training would make them tougher .`. have a defense score

EDIT: I meant to make the tank damage based on the cost of the technique vs. their Def stat/mod (whatever). Tougher techniques = higher toll.

When I first joined this game and read techniques which had "60 Ninjutsu" as the cost, the first thought I had was that your stat was reduced temporarily every time you used it. I was promptly corrected after asking a few questions. However, this seemed like a fair idea: use a technique and if it's strenuous lose effectiveness. It gives me a rather radical idea for mechanics, but we wouldn't want that - another port would be frustrating for people I imagine. /EDIT

Edited August 11, 2008 by PhantasyIV

[Nagori]

I missed a lot in this thread, so I'll just sum up my opinion. As far as revamping Defense and Resistance, I think it should stay as is. The system in that regard is plenty balanced. If you are really wanting to be a defensive ninja, take the corresponding path. There is a skill, "Tied Defenses," that allows you to apply 75% of both defensive stats to any attack. That's pretty good if you ask me.

However, I do think the Accuracy and Evasion stats need to be revised. Generally speaking, unless you have an accuracy/evasion within 100 stat points of those of your opponent, then hitting them instantly becomes impossible. 100 stat points is +/- 25% chance to hit, which means you may be left with only 35% chance to hit. Though it's not as low as the 15% cap, but wasting technique after technique trying to hit someone with that sort of accuracy is a pain in the butt. My suggestion would be to apply half modifiers to both Accuracy and Evasion to make things more fair.

Another possibility to level out all stats on a legit level would be to allow ninja to not only train for JP, but for stat points as well. They could go through a training designed to hone their defensive stats, and by its conclusion (depending upon both the quality and length) they'll get awarded a set number of stat points they can apply to each of their defensive stats. Just a suggestion. In that sense, their defensive stats will actually represent the amount of training they've had in that area. This could be applied to the other statistics, too, but that's just an idea.

[cntrstrk14]

Stat point training won't be allowed. Just gain a level.

As for Accuracy/Evasion, I already have the changes set up to be done, just waiting on all these battles to wrap up.

[Ichi]

WHat kind of changes, I mean, it makes sense to say screw D stats when all you have to do is what I do, stack evasion, 90% of the time i have 90% dodge, unless your against a acc stacker, which is also good. Stacking is really the only true way to win, simply because everyone or near everyone stacks and there is no rule agianst it, and there damn well never should be a rule how to build your char.

Instead of what ifs and omg he has 90% to hit blah blah, stack your char.

I am with Tony, there should be absolutly NO training for stat points. Or people like RN would have like a stat of 5000000

[cntrstrk14]

The point is that there is not cap to stats, but you need to get them through leveling. If we make stat training, we might as well through levels out the window and just have training for each thing. Levels are what help the staff to make things for players to do, as its an easy way for us to determine your approximate strength. Can you think how even MORE hellish it would be to do a mass stat battle like we are now without being able to quickly know a person's stats. It would suck.

As for Eva and Accuracy, we are probably going to change it to +/- 2% instead of 5% per modifier.

[Baromosa]

I like the sound of that. It would make accuracy and evasion less easy to cap every time unless you were totally out classed.

[Ichi]

with a 5% change to a 2% change would not that be exactly the same for stackers?

Edit: never mind, it would mean a closer and lower then 90%, my bad miss understood haha

Edited August 18, 2008 by Ichi

[PhantasyIV]

Ichi: The difference is that if I have 100 more Acc than someone has evasion, then instead of having an 85% chance to hit (barring everything but stats and the base 60). That goes down to a 70% chance. It makes the base worth more than say, 300 stat points saved in Acc.

I would need an Acc 300 higher than the target evasion to have a 90%.

My main gripe with defensive stats is that people without any still are allowed to use defensive skills and jutsu just because they have a tank and offense stat high enough. Granted the Counter jutsu rules help somewhat, but if I don't even need a defense or evasion because I can use a nifty water technique that cancels out an attack for all purposes a stat would count for, then that encourages me to stack offenses and leave behind Defensives to skills with no real prerequisites (as per my Seeing Mind on Sealed Gen and 0 Con characters argument earlier)

[abeiros]

As for Eva and Accuracy, we are probably going to change it to +/- 2% instead of 5% per modifier.

Sweet. Low numbers work great, less complicated and such. In addition to this defensive stats, I think it is perfectly even. 20 for 5 for both defense and offense.

Even so...In my opinion, I think Defense and Resistance should not even be a stat, because I mean, isnt defense really given by the amount of armor you have? The reason shinobi can take such a pounding is because of their high health, arn't I right with logic on this one? Defense and Resistance could be additional stats that you get for wearing armor, that would give more efficient reduction to damage then the current stats. Hmm?

[cntrstrk14]

No, Defense and Resistance reflect a person's ability to take a hit. Whether it be from just straight up harder skin and bones or their ability to roll with punches and soften blows.