Prop 8

[Aiyoku]

So:

Proposition 8 is taking place in California. It is as follows:

"ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME–SEX COUPLES TO MARRY. INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.

* Changes the California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in California.

* Provides that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

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Problem:

There is nothing constitutional about marriage, it is a religious event.

Keep church and government separate.

Thoughts on this?

I'm doing this as my current event for my government class, it got me so flustered I thought I'd share it.

[Ravage Nocturne]

According to some weird political generality (Don't remember the name) there's something about how each state is to respect another's decision, making this rather awkward because it defies MA/NY.

But, I don't like politics. Just throwing out some dumb crap my teacher said.

[Aiyoku]

If it gets too out of hand, Supreme Court could get involved...possibly.

[Full-metal Dragon]

I never thought it should be banned anywhere. It is no one's business. I'm not gay, but if I wanted to marry a man, I wouldn't want to have to go way outta state to do it, because all of the members running the state government are homophobes, and haven't caught up with the new generation.

[Aiyoku]

Agreed, I mean what's next, they can't vote?

They are taking away rights that they can't legally take. It's so frustrating. I'm not a lesbian, but I support love, whether it's with another woman or man. If you can't find love straight and you can by being gay or a lesbian, more power to you.

[r4nd0m]

Seperation of Church and State...nuff said.

[dowhatnow]

According to some weird political generality (Don't remember the name) there's something about how each state is to respect another's decision, making this rather awkward because it defies MA/NY.

But, I don't like politics. Just throwing out some dumb crap my teacher said.

This involves the separation of State and Federal levels of government, one of the many arguments, and later compromises, among the Founding Fathers.

Back on topic, I really don't care either way. People want to be homophobic? That's their prerogative. People want to be homosexual and get married? Why the hell not? That is their prerogative. "Do what ever the hell you want," I say.

[Nagori]

One reason that I've absolutely hated the Bush Administration (and the McCain Administration if it had come about) is that they let their religious believe dominate their decisions. That may have been alright a few hundred years ago, but now that less than half (way less than half) or American citizens are religious, that should no longer apply; our government needs to do what is in the best interest of its people, and even then, to deny the right to do something that has absolutely no effect on others simply because it disgusts them...is stupid.

[Warr]

One reason that I've absolutely hated the Bush Administration (and the McCain Administration if it had come about) is that they let their religious believe dominate their decisions. That may have been alright a few hundred years ago, but now that less than half (way less than half) or American citizens are religious, that should no longer apply; our government needs to do what is in the best interest of its people, and even then, to deny the right to do something that has absolutely no effect on others simply because it disgusts them...is stupid.

Kodate, do you have a source for your statistic? And if you do did they start ignoring/stop counting the bible belt of the US as apart of the US and it's citizens as Americans population? Because that's the only way that could be a true statistic, and even then it'd be a stretch. Most of the US, is religious in some way, if not an actual religion, agnostic with loose christian tendencies.

Let me also just point out, to the 'Church and State', yes, they are supposed to be separate, however, this has nothing to do with the church's thoughts on it, it has to do with the people of California's choice, right to or right not to, and their own Societal values. Marriage is more a societal and legal thing than just a 'religious' thing, despite what someone might say.

The only problem that meets is its ignoring of other states law, and even that is not a big problem, as that's only a policy, not an actual law (Agreeing to consider another stat's law or statement on a person in their state for any extended amount of time).

That said, don't assume I'm right wing. I'm just stating it as it is. I myself don't care one way or another who marries, so long as they're decent about it, and marrying to other humans.

Point? Consider more than the obvious, and don't follow the 'obvious conclusion' just because you've been forcefed it since your early childhood. The Bush Administration has no real power over these things, the elected STATE senates, and the NATIONAL senate have power, Bush just has the power to go 'lol, no, this is retarded, rework it.' but even then if it gets passed a few more times and he does that, it can go anyways. Media tries to make it seem like the president is our king or something, he isn't.

[Nagori]

Warr, when I first made the religious remark, it pertained to what I refer to as Die-Hard Christians (but mostly Catholics I believe), and I have my reasons for that. (Don't Care) As for the Bush Administration, I wasn't solely referring to the issue of Gay Marriage. There are many other things he has personally vetoed (like stem cell research, twice) in light of his religious beliefs, even though Congress had passed it both of those times. If you want "proof" of that statement, I'm not going to waste my time hunting it down for you; if you don't believe me, google/wikipedia works wonders. Also, from my understanding, I believe that McCain had plans to...well, I'm not quite sure if "ban" is the right word...but "get rid of" a few different methods of birth control (the morning after pill). Again, this stems from his religious standing, and from what I understand, would have gone against popular belief.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Kodate

[dowhatnow]

Let me also just point out, to the 'Church and State', yes, they are supposed to be separate, however, this has nothing to do with the church's thoughts on it, it has to do with the people of California's choice, right to or right not to, and their own Societal values. Marriage is more a societal and legal thing than just a 'religious' thing, despite what someone might say.

And so you mean to tell me that the people's societal views aren't influenced by the church in any way?

I will concede that marriage is "more a societal and legal thing," but in my opinion, it's primarily the religious side of marriage that makes the thought of gay marriage "offensive" to some people, thus driving them to formulate an opinion, and even vote, based on their core religious views. And you're right; it has everything to do with the people of California's choice on the issue. All I'm saying is that not everyone is a rational, much less reasonable, human being, and that this is, based on my experience, especially true in California.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Ransho Kagemaru

[Aiyoku]

The fact that it is a religious belief that is propelling this argument makes it ten times worse. The religious sect wants to make it unconstitutional for same-sex marriage. Holy cow. How many civil rights are we going to take away from them next? How about, next they won't be able to adopt children, then they can't be in the same restaurant, oh! I know, they can't vote. I mean really. Not saying that those things will happen, just some exaggeration to make my idea clear. Yeah it's California's decision, but it'll be a the surrounding states problem when same-sex couples leave California to get married elsewhere and then move back to California.

It's not fair to take someone's right away. They are a human being they deserve the same rights as the person standing next to them, it doesn't matter where in the U.S. Who cares if it's their societal views, they can't tell someone they can get married to the person they love because it's of the same sex, that's not fair. And that shouldn't be how America works......

[Rei]

How about, next they won't be able to adopt children,

They can't in many states anyway.

[Aiyoku]

Oh my...that's not right. How depressing...

[Nagori]

There are several reasons why other nations hate us...not that that is the main one or even one of them...but yeah....

[Ichi]

As long as they dont bone each other in the streets, who gives a shit. Religion is a myth made up for power anyway, it should hold NO opionion in current politics, fun religion, its a waste of time.

[abeiros]

Aiyoku, I hate politics, cause they make me talk :< But why not join this debate, huh?

Marriage is controlled by the State Government, not Federal, and since we live in a society where the federal governments power would like to be decreased and state governments power increased and because of this, the federal government would do little to intervene with that decision.(because of Republicans within the Federal Government / and one of their views is to let state government take actions on their own, and an example of this would be the katrina incident when the state government did all to help its citizens and the feds did little to help).

That is my opinion. So no one goes crazy on me! D:<

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But I must agree, it's ridiculous.

[Nagori]

As long as they dont bone each other in the streets, who gives a shit. Religion is a myth made up for power anyway, it should hold NO opionion in current politics, fun religion, its a waste of time.

Yes.

[Aiyoku]

Talk is good though!

Though politics are frustrating...

Edited November 14, 2008 by Aiyoku

[Kenji-San]

You know what's frustrating?

....prop 8.

Yeah, I went there.