Combinatorial; Golden Webbing

[Princess]

 

Combinatorial; Golden Webbing

May use Golden Webbing techniques.  Golden Webbing techniques may add two (2) additional strikes to that attack.  Each additional strike uses Accuracy and Evasion to hit and is made with a Small Weapon. The base damage of the strike is equal to the base damage of the Small Weapon, is modified by the user's Taijutsu and the strike gains any effects that the Small Weapon has. This attack consumes the Small Weapon as if it was thrown, and is considered a Weapon Attack in addition to its original type .

Requirements: Teikoku Kumo Bloodline

Subtle Elements: Fire, Water, Earth

Cost: -2

[Princess]

So, resubbing Golden Webbing as in its current state it is an empircally worse version of Combinatorial;Mud, which is a tier lower, has the same effect but a 100% chance to apply it if you hit instead of a 40% chance. It also soaks up the design space for 'element which inflicts slow' so uh yeah, new direction.


What do we have here now? Strikes with small weapons! That's the direction I've taken the Tsuchigumo. They spend their setup phase to build a bunch of weapons, then main phase they launch an attack and get 2 additional strikes from their arms and this will grant an additional 2 strikes, for a total of 4 extra strikes on [Golden Webbing] techniques. These additional strikes are all Small Weapon attacks or, for those first additional 2 strikes, they can be unarmed basic attacks too. Note that this cannot add additional strikes to just throwing small weapons, meaning they still cap out at 10 strikes, but this means that as the game drags on and you hit the higher levels where small weapons do less, you can still get supreme value out of your bloodline ability by combining it with regular techniques. The weapons created all have to be paid for with chakra or money, so there's an inherent balancer to this element that ensures nothing is used without being paid for somewhere. 

Overall, hey it's unique stuff from Princess, probably a nightmare, but I think it'll mesh really well with their current direction and make them a super fun super unique clan to play as.

[Yurane]

You're going to need to specify that the strikes have their damage/effects based off the small weapons used - as written, this reads as if you can turn an attack w/ two hits of 600 damage into a 2400 damage blitz for 2 small weapons.

[Princess]

It states that you perform the additional strikes with the small weapons as per a Small Weapon Attack, meaning they function as per using a small weapon as detailed in 6.02. Already covered that base. No need to state the additional strikes use the base damage of the weapons because the rules for a Small Weapon Attack do that for me, and I always get told not to add extra words when they're unneeded, so I'm relying on the game to say it for me.

[PandaMattMatt]

Really not a fan of this effect. It isnt an element effect. Think of it this way, what does the webbing itself do? If this were applied to a weapon with Inlaid Element, what it do? For that reason, adding additional strikes to any attack based on it consuming small weapons makes very little to absolutely no sense.

 

When I think of webs I think sticky. So maybe something like each Golden Webbing technique used creates a Web Trap that inflicts Shackled; Paired Legs for 1 turn. Or Something like that, I dunno. Basically, make it as basic to the element as possible.

 

Edit; Also, Earth/Water seems fine to me if you want to knock this down to tier 1. If not, i'm not fighting that aspect haha

Edited March 24, 2019 by PandaMattMatt

[Princess]

Counterpoint: This isn't Combinatorial; Spider Web, it's Golden Webbing. The golden web has two uses insofar as the anime has shown us, weapons and armour. The direction the Tsuchigumo are heading is focusing on the former, the latter will be a technique chain I work on later. 

So Golden Web comes from chewing the normal web to make it a gum that hardens on air contact. The anime pretty clearly points out it isn't sticky once it comes out. So the rough idea is that, with the element, you're making excess gum to launch extra small weapon attacks with. I originally wanted to peg it specifically to the weapons created by the bloodline, but it became incredibly wordy to do so, and I elected to avoid that. That's where it loses its flavour a bit, it should be Golden Webbing Small Weapons instead of just Small Weapons. But it is designed to thematically fit what we saw Kidomaru do in the anime, hell look at the gif. He's big on volume. 

[PandaMattMatt]

Kay, then adding... 4 additional strikes to every attack just isnt going to fly. Between this and the extra 2 sets of arms, you can add up to 4 extra strikes to just about every single attack. So every attack suddenly becomes 5-9+ strikes.

[Princess]

So, I am working on a new idea for this, but I'm gonna give it as is one last shot at swaying you to my side.


Specified Golden Webbing Small Weapons. And here's where it gets clunky and it irritates me but for balance purposes yeah okay. It also now states that it adds them as extra strikes if they have no use limit. That means Arrow and Barbed Arrow are off the table, this closes off a loophole I realised where you're not technically using them so you could theoretically use four of the two per turn limited weapons in a single turn, and that's not okay.

Then, we look at the weapons. You're paying 1:1 chakra to make, at most, two strikes of 20 base damage. Yes there's some stuff that fiddles with that, I think it'd cap out at 40 damage and 4 bleeding per additional strike at sennin with max investment in all the small weapon stuff as written. They split your mods, and the real reason the multiple strikes exist is to get more value out of the skill which adds accuracy for multistrikes.

So we have a 1:1 ratio to add extra damage, and the sacrifice of a setup phase, and the sacrifice of several SP, all so you can throw two two spikes at your opponent in addition to your other two. Yes, I know drowning someone in dice rolls will annoy them, but I don't think annoyance should be a balancing factor. Mechanically, it's a hoard of smaller blows which will get negged into infinity so the goal will be hit as much as possible, poison and bleed them slowly for steady amounts, and keep the pressure on at all times.

ALSO ALSO, since these additional strikes, all four in consideration, cost largely from the setup phase and not part of the technique. RPJs against them cost nothing more and annhilate them. Barriers hold this stuff at bay too, a wave of tiny negligable hits against a massive wall is going to be a slow steady race.

I think +4 strikes a turn, probably looking at costing 80 chakra 2 stamina a turn to do, is not the end of the world from a balance standpoint.

But if it is, gimme some time I'm working on plan B.

[cntrstrk14]

I think this might adjust based on the bloodline, which I just posted in. I don't have a problem with this, but its kind of just "more of the same" of what the bloodline does, since it already adds two strikes to any attack that the make, which can be small weapons. Let's put a pin in this for a minute though until the bloodline is locked up and then look at this.

[Princess]

Bloodline is approved yay!

And yes, it is more of the same! Doubling down on the small weapon strikes to allow you more capacity to use your ninjutsu while still gaining the benefits of the Tsuchigumo creating bountiful small weapons. So as pointed out, we go from a theoretical strike range of 3-7 to 5-9 here, 2 of which must be small weapon attacks with Golden Webbing Weapons (meaning they have an attached chakra cost) and the other two can be any mix of small weapons and basic attacks. 

So the idea is to allow them to transition away from just maxing the max small weapon attacks a turn (which would be 10 with the Bloodline) and aim for using a base ninjutsu and then throwing the weapons with it, staying thematic to the wide range of barrage attacks Kidomaru used in the anime, while also opening the door for cool stuff like the mega drill arrow thing.

That's my justification and concept anyway. I will also, if the idea floats well with you, adapt the wording from the bloodline's additional strikes and apply that to this as it's clearer less princessy language which is a net win for all.

[Toroi21]

I like it. TBH it fits the theme of the small weapon user we were hoping for and it doesn't seem like it's too overpowered. Yes they are a TON of small attacks, but that's what it is . . . small attacks. It isn't like a Tsuchigumo is dealing out a hundred damage with each strike, and each strike has their own chakra costs as drawbacks. Obviously, once this is combined/blended with other elements (like rust or plant) this could create a lot of havoc, which is why i can see why there's a lot of hesitation on the subject. But if this is the case, why not add it to the list of 'Denied' blended elements?? Therefore I wish i had the power to approve cause this boi is ready to go!

 

PS. Staff, can we pleeeeeeeeease do some staff-ey things? I'm bored and i wanna play with spooderboi. :p

Edited April 2, 2019 by Toroi21

[Princess]

Allllright, slight wording change to bring this in line with Imperial Spider. It adds up to two strikes, they MUST be small weapon strikes. It doesn't actually add any extra small weapon uses, but that's because it -really- doesn't need to. A gennin with Imperial Spider has 5 small weapon attacks to add to their attacks, so you get the 2 additional strikes from IS and 2 from this, you can throw a big 4 throw barbed arrow and still have room to make a basic attack. Small weapon useage isn't pegged to the number of strikes you are making, but the rank at which you currently stand, so what Golden Webbing does is allows a Tsuchigumo with it to double down and make the most of their excess weapon throws. At sennin, this will most likely play out as -4 -4 -3 weapon throws, which is gonna cost something in the region of 100 chakra and 11 stamina, plus your left over basic attack which you will likely also make with a small weapon for extra chakra and stamina cost. It's a resource heavy build, draining either your chakra or your money with reckless abandon, but you should be able to keep a lot of pressure, and the addition of two more strikes from this element is mandatory to make the most of the bloodline's abilities.

Or I can work something else out, but I really like this, so I don't really want to?

[Azure]

approved.

[Yurane]

I honestly don't agree with this... lego-blocky stacking strikes indefinitely thing that this and the bloodline have going on. The next thing you know there's a tai style adding several more and every attack is getting a half dozen free extra strikes to attacks that have nothing to do with small weapons in the first place, which is 100% toxic design space that makes you straight unfun to fight. We usually try to avoid abilities that force opponents to have to roll an excessive number of times per turn, and this straight plays against that for... seemingly no reason.

 

It made sort-of sense with the bloodline (extra arms), but this element allowing you to make small weapon attacks (an entirely different attack type) every time you attack honestly really doesn't. I think we need to find another way to make this flavorful and effective without just arbitrary adding mechanics unrelated to ninjutsu to it.

 

 

Edit: In the interest of not being 'that person' who just... holds something up without being constructive, maybe this would be better served as a parallel to Steel if you want to focus on the small weapons of the clan? If it was a 2 element combinatorial that allowed you to spend 10% of the chakra cost on making weapons with the bloodline that could get closer to achieving something that synergizes with the clan without feeling like something that isn't really ninjutsu.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Yurane

[Princess]

Also updated with current wording. There's no minor difference between the bloodline skill and the element other than restrictions on implementation now. I still want to swing it this way, I know Lan doesn't feel it's thematic for ninjutsu to spawn taijutsu based small weapon attacks, but I mean, watch the fight. Kidomaru did a few large arrows, the rest was barrages after barrages. Swarms are what he does. And given the wording change has meant that, while they have more opportunities to throw small weapons the Tsuchigumo actually get no more small weapon attacks in a turn than anyone else, so at sennin you're looking probably at using your 4 extra strikes to  launch like...2 2 2 3 as your small weapon uses. Meaning this is now pinned in the lower range of attack damage, which more accurately represents how Kidomaru fought anyway, either barrages of tiny stuff or massive single shots. 

I'm happy with this, it's mechanically no different really to when Azure approved it. I believe in you all.

[Princess]

Changed as per Tony's requests in bloodline topic. Is an end in sight? I choose to believe.

[cntrstrk14]

Please add "This is now considered a Weapon Attack in addition to its original type." and then I think this is good.

[Princess]

All done. Yay.

[cntrstrk14]

Approved

[Azure]

On 4/11/2019 at 7:39 PM, Azure said:

approved.