Political Tiers And Standing Discussion

[Warr]

I've been on NA for just short of two years now, and in that time there's something I've seen people have problems understanding and things we've either poorly defined or totally ignored for simplicities sake, even if it makes things more confusing and complicated. The things themselves? Politics. A world described as the series has repeatedly described the world our character's play in would have politics influencing things just as much as anything else, if not more. Politics, more over than monetary problems, were the primary cause of Sunagakure no Sato allying with Otogakure no Sato for the first invasion of Konohagakure no Sato. Politics are why the Daimyo of the various countries of the world even allow various hidden villages to exist in their world. It could be argued that yes, they might very will allow them because they can't get rid of them, but there's always the possibility of the other great shinobi countries hidden village being used against the one native to that nation.

Skidding a bit away from that tangent, I'd like to explain how I perceive the world of NA to function, especially with the various countries existing, and the countries themselves not being abolished when the known world was invaded by Rai no Kuni, when the 'hidden villages' were in their original working order.

Within every country, there is a dual power structure. There are multiple hans (Domains), and within those domains various villages and towns exist. In the majority of the Shinobi Countries (Majority, see 'The majority of the major shinobi countries) the Daimyo is the official and 'correct' ruler of his particular country, and has full authority to order tariffs on trading situations, trade routes, and make laws of what is and is not illegal in his or her country. He is effectively for purposes of western/American/Any culture that sprouted primarily from English settlers, the 'King' of his domain.

Like in Fuedal Japan of old, every Country is divided beyond it's simple national boundaries. Each country has various regions and territories within the country itself, and is divided into 'provinces' or for purposes of flavor 'han', or the term primarily used by the country itself. Each of the han is governed by a governor, either the Daimyo himself or someone else. In the case of the hidden villages, it can be assumed that the 'governor' of the land around it is that village's respective Kage, and in most cases the village's council, as well. In the case of the han (as I said before, literal definition being domains, but for our purposes any non-hidden village or capital city's area), the governor is either likely a coalition of the villages that exist in the area, or in more likely cases, the clan that holds the most land in that han or whom owns all of the han.

This said, clans which are non-shinobi clans would likely hold some sway in the nation but for the most part very little, as in the case of this world it seems that 'shinobi-nin' are a mixture of the Samurai of history's true tradition, the shinobi-nin of fiction, and shugenja of eastern lore. The han would not necessarily be administered by the clan that owned it, but the clan would get a cut of the taxes from such a han without a doubt.

The kage of each hidden village would serve both as a 'dual and opposing/opposite' ruler to the Daimyo, though with no official control over the nation's politics, the kage would understandably be one of the country's strongest warriors, and likely have at least a sizable following of other warriors. In addition, because the hidden villages would not want rivals to their power, the shinobi clans of the country, including those that technically did not reside within the hidden villages, would have to pay at least lip service to the hidden village which holds sway over their country, lest be brought into a blood civil war. Because of the status of Shinobi-nin in the Narutoverse, and the fact that the kage of each village has immense political power within that village and can assign missions without oversight from their country's leaders and without oversight from the council, the kage is roughly an equivalent to a Shogun for each village, or a general of an semi-dependent army that keeps itself at ready primarily to protect itself and it's home country. This would further explain the likelihood of shinobi clans that reside outside the hidden village proper still having to pay some sort of lip service to the kage, as well as give at least some troops to the defense of the village and their country.

Some clans would be the followers of rural warlords (A very loose definition is what I use this for, believe me.), and others would reside directly within the hidden village, both because the hidden village likes to keep tabs on them and because they feel it makes them both more secure and more likely to hold sway over their hidden village's politics than a Tozama (See, 'Outsider Warlord/clan.').

This would explain very clearly the origins of many modern hidden villages and would explain very simply why the Daimyo keep their noses out of everyone's business, though they likely have their own private army of samurai in the capitals, as well. It'd also explain why in the series both the Hyuuga and the Uchiha have 'districts' (though we would like to call them estates, they are better termed as districts) within their particular hidden village, and why there's never really any nonsense brought up about rent and the like. For active shinobi-nin or trainees of the hidden village, rents would likely not be charged, and they'd be given at least sparse quarters somewhere within the hidden village.

If we consider the fact that the Daimyo is in fact the true ruler of every country (Aside from perhaps a few exemptions like Rice Country which is small enough for the hidden village to have taken hold as the only governmental body/replaced the former Daimyo.), we give the game a slight twist. The kage cannot order invasion of other nations, and going to a country does not mean going to that country's hidden village, directly.

The clans themselves, being private armies of a sort, and landholders, are 'nobles', and their leaders are afforded such respect, if nothing else but to keep things peaceful. Members of clan's would hold members of clans they do not wish to end up warring with to a level of difference in the least, as otherwise there might be an outbreak of small scale clan war between the two factions.

On one final note that I've not touched on, because the Emperor (As in the emperor before the Raikage) does not have a standing army and the other countries seem to be independent for the most part, his function is likely of a figurehead figure or perhaps even 'pope' like figure, who is there to ocall for sense when there is no one else who will call for it.

I hope this sparks some debate, and I'm quite sorry I rambled.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Warr

[Eechi-go]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Suna attack Konoha without any permission of the Daimyo? Didn't he begin putting the village in the debt or something, so Suna joined Oto to attack Konoha to get money for the village?

Quite frankly, I can't see the Daimyo being anything more then figureheads for the countries. After all, he who has the most power shall rule, and considering the Kage can most likely pull the intestines out of the Daimyo's nose in a matter of seconds, I'd say the village of each nation is -really- in control. Of course. the Daimyo is still in charge of land, ect, ect of normal people, I seriously doubt that the strongest ninja in the nation will bend his knee to said Daimyo.

Then again, I suppose it depends on the village and the one in charge.

[cntrstrk14]

I would like to add in here that this is NOT an official record of how the world is on NA, and the staff has not approved this as a concrete form of the political setup. Not yet at least, so don't go quoting it.

As for my view on Eechi's point, the Daimyo has always been in charge in my head. Yes, the Kage is the military leader, but they are there to serve the people of the country, and the Daimyo is the one in charge of those people. The kage is basically like the head general of the military where the Daimyo is the president. Any military decisions will more than likely be turned over to the Kage because of his experience, but anything to do with economy, etc. etc. is run by the Daimyo. The kage's scope of power really does not leave the village he resides in.

[Warr]

I would like to add in here that this is NOT an official record of how the world is on NA, and the staff has not approved this as a concrete form of the political setup. Not yet at least, so don't go quoting it.

Which was implied by me saying (From what I perceived as clearly) 'this is my opinion.'

And Eechi, true enough, from what I remember Suna joined Oto in the invasion of Konohagakure no Sato because the Daimyo was putting the village in depth/not supporting it by instead giving the funds he would normally give the village hidden in the sands to Konohagakure no Sato and not giving Suna as many mission requests or whatever.

There was nothing to say that the Daimyo had any 'real' power aside from political and figurehead power, (and likely economic power), and no where would it be assumed that the kage would bow to his will, but because of the economic power and he could begin to support a different hidden village economically (as he likely would in such a case of the hidden village directly disobeying a request of his simply because they didn't like it or the village trying to control the lands outside of itself 'just because they could'; ), there would be a level of difference given to him. I figured that was implied, really. It's not the fact that he's got more physical power, but in the case of him publicly being executed by the kage of the hidden village of his country, his funds would obviously not go to the hidden village, unless it stole them from his heirs/family, and there would also be a less likely chance of the hidden village getting missions and money from the people of the countryside and from other countries, as there would be a level of 'fear' towards the hidden village's intentions.

This is how I perceived things.

[Eechi-go]

Yeah, Cntr, I know that. That's what I meant by him controlling land and whatnot. I just felt that if push came to shove when it comes to if a village should or should not invade another country, that the village wouldn't listen very much to the Daimyo, since canon seemed to prove that.

[Rei]

So did Kumo overthrow entire nations or just military villages?

[Warr]

Very true in that case, otherwise they'd not invade other countries at all, lest invoke the wrath of the other countries.

Domestically, Cntr's got it definitely right (That's how I view things at least), and internationally, the hidden village is it's own entity in some ways, but still is tied to it's own country, and has to answer to it's own daimyo.

I'm sure, at least for our continuum's standpoint, that Cha no Kuni's Daimyo was deposed by Orochimaru when he formed Otogakure no Sato, and that's why Otogakure no Sato is the 'ninja capital' and 'capital' of it's country in our setting.

In the case of the hidden village's at times ignoring their own daimyo, that's likely what happened with Kumogakure no Sato/Rai no Kuni, and the Raikage likely either killed the Daimyo and put a puppet/imposter in his place, or married into the Daimyo's family and then usurped the Raikage's position and the Daimyo's position, so that he could bring the whole country's army to bare, and control economics as well. When he 'took over the world' and became 'emperor' that's why he controlled some level of economics in every village and was able to give moneys to help rebuild, but why he didn't control everything, as most country's daimyo still existed.

If that makes sense.

So did Kumo overthrow entire nations or just military villages?

A mixture of both. Kumogakure no Sato took the military villages (and thereby the main military arm of the villages) but then told the Daimyo they had psuedo-independence, and when it was all over the Raikage declared himself Emperor and then gave the Daimyo sort of 'governor rule' over their nations, though his hidden village governor's (The captains of the NCIA) had sort of rival power in the countries, and were able to do things with the Raikage's permission that the Daimyo may or may not have liked. This is likely why the 'Council' exists in Nigiyakashufu, so that the Daimyo can gather and meet on equal grounds with the Raikage or the Emperor or a representative of them or whatever.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Warr

[Maelstrom]

I was under the impression that Suna was blindly following Orochimaru in the guise of their Kage, since he did impersonate him during the Chuunin Exams. Unless they gave a specific time of when it happened, one could assume that Orochimaru made the switch prior to the whole invasion.

[Warr]

That's also true, Maelstrom, but I'm quite sure the village's council would have disagreed with the possibility of invading Konohagakure no Sato if not given those reasons. The exact time when he began to impersonate the Kazekage was not given, but it was implied and one would think that it was very close to that time if he was able to coordinate things as he seemed to have done.

[cntrstrk14]

That's also true, Maelstrom, but I'm quite sure the village's council would have disagreed with the possibility of invading Konohagakure no Sato if not given those reasons. The exact time when he began to impersonate the Kazekage was not given, but it was implied and one would think that it was very close to that time if he was able to coordinate things as he seemed to have done.

They showed them finding the Kazekage's body in the desert, so it was before he went to the village for the exams. More than likely he killed him prior to their going to the village, or on the way. I doubt Kishi cares/ thought it out enough for us to get an answer.

[Warr]

Yeah, we know Kishi doesn't, but it seems likely the alliance was already made, but the Kazekage was not killed until right before they left for the chuunin exams. That's what makes sense to me, at least.

[Maelstrom]

Well, I believe it's safe to assume that, normally, those types of military decisions would be fall on the Daimyo. I see each Hidden Village being the Daimyo's muscle; they serve and protect the country while keeping order among its citizens, eliminating anything or anyone that poses a threat.

In the case of Suna allying with Oto to attack Konoha, that was likely one of the more extreme circumstances where military unrest forced the Kazekage, and essentially the village itself, to act without the Daimyo's consent. It might've been done, more so, for the good of the country; or so it may have been justified.

[Baromosa]

I think we're forgetting one of the key driving forces in many episodes of Naruto. Money. The village makes money, and a lot of the missions that aren't for protection are purely for clients who are willing to pay money for ninja services. True the shinobi always serve the lords, but without payment they would not care about much nor would remain in existence. This is my opinion.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Baromosa

[Maelstrom]

Obviously money is important, and not just for a shinobi. I'm fairly certain the village itself receives some portion of the pay a shinobi earns from each mission, and I also believe that the country the village resides in gets some sort of frequent allowance as well.

[Rei]

Obviously money is important, and not just for a shinobi. I'm fairly certain the village itself receives some portion of the pay a shinobi earns from each mission, and I also believe that the country the village resides in gets some sort of frequent allowance as well.

They receive some funds, most certainty the lion's share from ever mission. The Akatsuki confirmed that Shinboi missions are essential to the global economy.

[abeiros]

I don't think we need politics involved in a game.

[Warr]

I don't think we need politics involved in a game.

A Role playing game, Apple. A game which is supposed to both simulate and together with one another allow us to write further stories to a world that was originally supposed to just add on to a series we all liked and which evolved into something further.

Politics is something involved in day to day human life, even your choices and if you work at a place where you have more than one boss, which one's orders you listen to. It's something that's not at all alien to the Naruto series, either. It's something that's been the cause of multiple wars in the series from what we are given allusions to, and it's the reason why there is not a Singular Hidden Village, as opposed to six or seven (Or more?). It's also why clans exist as they do, instead of just being referred to as 'family's' and them in only small groups of homes that're nearby each other, otherwise separated.

So in short, you're simplifying something that shouldn't be simplified in that way. You're assuming that the hidden villages are just different element and location versions of the same thing, you're assuming clan's don't teach their secrets to outsiders simply because they don't like outsiders and are elitist, and you're also forgetting the storyline that has dominated nearly 2 and a half years of real life time and three years in game time.

The Civil War across the Shinobi Continent between the NCIA and the Resistance, which was a political battle in the end, more so than simply a battle for tradition or revenge, like some of our character's choose to simplify it. The NCIA branches of each individual country were mostly the shinobi-nin country of that country, so if the people of the world in game, the players out of game, and the organizations (And clans for that matter) in game didn't consider things on a political level as well as an emotional one, the current storyline wouldn't be happening at all. They'd simply all be performing criminal acts or being angsty.

That said, this discussion is not about if we should have politics in the game, it's of our thoughts on the political structure of the world in ways we haven't explored, and what place the hidden villages and the shinobi clans hold within their own nation's political sphere, as well as how much power the Daimyo really has.

And towards the money bit, we know for a fact that the hidden villages are necessary to the world economy and most missions performed by the shinobi-nin within the hidden village's give the majority of the pay gained to the village. The economic factor is a heavy one because without it the shinobi-nin would not have food in their belly or weapons in their stockpiles, without having to steal them from people. This is a major reason why the hidden villages are subservent to the Daimyo, who likely has the most power over the country itself's economy and is likely the richest person in his or her country. I mean, this factor is even proved with the fact that several daimyo watched the chuunin exams, and Konohagakure no Sato had no problem with the Daimyo doing so.

Mael, that's much of what myself, Eechi, and Cntr were saying. The Hidden Village's primary purpose is to serve as the military muscle for the country's daimyo, and police and protect the countryside along side the daimyo's own retainers. He gives order to the Kage, who is given fair digression on how to deal with these orders, but he is still the one who in most cases has control over the hidden village and it's deployment into other hidden villages/countries. In the case of Sunagakure no Sato allying with Otogakure no Sato, it was a clear act of disobeying their Daimyo's orders, or more likely one of desperation, because above money, the true and most exacting need and want, the biggest driving factor of shinobi groups, is of course food, and being able to eat. The (I believe it may have been filler) bit with the Fuma clan when Naruto, and Jiraiya were trying to find and enter Otogakure no Sato only illustrates this, because their clan had been decimated, and the 'hidden village of sound' had taken prominence in their lands, eliminating the chance of them being able to gain a honest day's work and thereby being able to gain moneys so they could eat.

[abeiros]

I'm not assuming what you said in your third paragrapgh, and after reading more of this topic, I see I missed something and had thought that people wanted a system of politics. Sorry. Anyway, I distinctly remember a topic in the forum about Kishi[being quoted] stating some stuff about the what you stated in the last paragraph, so of course I believe that. Reading the Naruto manga for however long its been out, I don't think Kishi has even came close to showing us the powers which the Daiyamo and Clans have, I think Kishi has rather evaded this set of area since it is a manga, and its point is to entertain. So I think it's actaully our choice to see how much power clans and the daiyamo hold.

*don't have any time left, kk, bye, maybe I post more tomorrow*

[PhantasyIV]

While Roleplay is ever so important in this game, the chracters are really only designed to fight in the long run. Adding an element that we're serving someone means a lot more depth and reason and gives us something to bounce off of when writing backstory. Of course, really the whole poloitics thing could be said to be summed up in missions as this little thing called "plot" (which we sometimes overlook in trying to figure out how to fill a novel with a one-sided conversation) and ultimately comes back to the Mod/Min unless we create a second character "class" into the game.

If players are allowed an extra character to represent the political power of their village, it means far more words to type, but it would also create a methodology of making the players demi-mods and allowing them to give back some plot because they would be playing games of intrigue and diplomacy with a political figure while sending their shinobi out to perform missions and favors.

Just throwing it out there in a rabid foam of a post.

EDIT: Awaiting polite neglect

Edited October 15, 2008 by PhantasyIV

[shizuki]

I always saw the villages as corporations. The Raikage just performed an extremely hostile takeover on multiple fronts, is what I'd intended.

[Rei]

I always saw the villages as corporations. The Raikage just performed an extremely hostile takeover on multiple fronts, is what I'd intended.

That makes it easier to understand.